The G Man Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 SuperStu has a point, but, the cop that shot this lad should have been the one that shot Lee Rigby's murderer, obviously got a better aim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMballistic Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 ....the cop that shot this lad should have been the one that shot Lee Rigby's murderer, obviously got a better aim. +1. RIP Lee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZEUS Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 SuperStu has a point, but, the cop that shot this lad should have been the one that shot Lee Rigby's murderer, obviously got a better aim. That's what they wanted though, to become martyres so I'm glad they were denied it and get to rot in prison. Hopefully some other inmates will get to them while there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The G Man Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Two nobodies, even Bin Laden was shot dead. They will rot in jail, but not quite as fast as in an unmarked grave/cremation/dumped at sea. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted January 8, 2014 Share Posted January 8, 2014 Most of it is here. http://www.independe...ed-9046813.html Sweet jesus, that is one of the most biased articles I've ever read in my entire life, including anything from the Daily Mail. The fact that it's from the Independent makes it worse. No-one reading that who knew little about the case could have any doubt that the cops were in the wrong, and the family are clearly heroes. That's utterly disgusting reporting from a broadsheet, and the fact it's not even an opinion piece... Well, I'm actually lost for words. Appalling journalism, they should be ashamed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhackyWill Posted January 8, 2014 Author Share Posted January 8, 2014 Don't worry tonight is to wet and cold for rioting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sipar69 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) Can't say I feel much, if any, sympathy with him or his family. Perhaps if they'd spent more time bringing him up to have decent values, respect the rule of law, stay away from guns etc. he wouldn't have ended up with a string of convictions and a reputation as someone whom the police clearly believed was a very real threat to their safety and the safety of others. You reap what you sew. Edited January 9, 2014 by sipar69 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spursmaddave Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Saw it on the news, his 'family & friends' say it all they were like rent a mob, if he was such a kind and gentle man with no links to crime like they are making out then he will surely be turning in his grave at these events.... Another thing, his entire family are on benefits but he had a massive old style funeral, yeah no drug money or gang money there whatsoever.... Sent from the golf club... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arran Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Deserves everything he got, scumbag. People who own guns lawfully, like my dad and I are subject in depth checks and proper security measures. This cockend running round London trying to play real life gta deserves it all. This country needs to be taking action like that more often and stop this pussy footing around making us a laughing stock of a nation Dare I say thats one thing America have spot on 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Yeah, America has totally solved gun crime and gang violence with their approach. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouthwash Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) Am I the only one who thinks his family screaming for justice is slightly ironic? I've no doubt if Mark Duggan wasn't shot that day then he'd currently be hiding from the justice system, by the looks of it, with the rest of his family/friends too. You don't deserve justice if you've spat in its face your whole life. Edited January 9, 2014 by mouthwash 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjt Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I saw the scenes outside the courtroom last night on the news, and I was in disbelief. Its events like this that give individuals with a similar mindset to Mr Duggan all the excuse they need to cause mayhem and misery for thousands of people and make a spectacle of our country when we were under most scrutiny just before the Olympics. How his supporters can act how they outside the court is, in my view, unbelievable. Ordinary members of the public found that, on the evidence presented, he was lawfully killed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theheff Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I wish people would apply their brains more before posting about stuff like this. First off. The Brazilian on the tube. He was given several instructions from police to stop. I believe from what I've heard but can't be 100% sure jumped the barrier while running from police! still giving clear instructions and ran onto a train. The police involved were on a covert anti terrorist operation so had some reason to believe he was involved in something, enough to show out. He then ran on a train where if he was a terrorist, could have detonated an explosive device. Now I would rather the police shoot him several times and kill him than take the risk that he doesn't have anything for him to the detonate a device killing innocent people on the train. The Dugan stuff again. Better safe that sorry. He was a career "gang banger" and I have suspicion that the issues at the court were more to do with a potential compensation payment. The police did not shoot either of these men. It was a human being acting on behalf of the police and the country as a whole. That human being doing a job that doesn't pay all that well considering things he will have to do. Especially when you take into account that the government are attacking his pension and pay structure while increasing there own. If we are going to start convicting our officers for doing there job when they have an honest held belief about something. They aren't psychic after all. Is that not going to affect the decision making process of officers later down the line. Would they have acts as they did in the lee rugby murder. If your mum was believed in danger from a man suspected armed with a gun, ignoring all police instructions then walks towards her. Would officers take the shot or would they hesitate fearing for the jobs and own liberty! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Well said mate. I'd forgotten about the Menezes thing tbh, but you're right: If armed coppers were running after me, you can be damn sure I'd be eating dirt and worrying about anything else later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I wish people would apply their brains more before posting about stuff like this. First off. The Brazilian on the tube. He was given several instructions from police to stop. I believe from what I've heard but can't be 100% sure jumped the barrier while running from police! still giving clear instructions and ran onto a train. The police involved were on a covert anti terrorist operation so had some reason to believe he was involved in something, enough to show out. He then ran on a train where if he was a terrorist, could have detonated an explosive device. Now I would rather the police shoot him several times and kill him than take the risk that he doesn't have anything for him to the detonate a device killing innocent people on the train. The Dugan stuff again. Better safe that sorry. He was a career "gang banger" and I have suspicion that the issues at the court were more to do with a potential compensation payment. The police did not shoot either of these men. It was a human being acting on behalf of the police and the country as a whole. That human being doing a job that doesn't pay all that well considering things he will have to do. Especially when you take into account that the government are attacking his pension and pay structure while increasing there own. If we are going to start convicting our officers for doing there job when they have an honest held belief about something. They aren't psychic after all. Is that not going to affect the decision making process of officers later down the line. Would they have acts as they did in the lee rugby murder. If your mum was believed in danger from a man suspected armed with a gun, ignoring all police instructions then walks towards her. Would officers take the shot or would they hesitate fearing for the jobs and own liberty! Come on. It's a reasonable discussion to have, not a "why don't you apply your brain?" shouting match. I did apply my brain, which is why I'm talking about the broader issue of the police's use of lethal force against the general public, rather than specifically the Duggan mess. "The end justifies the means" theme which keeps popping up is not a reasonable explanation of anyone's behaviour, particularly in something so serious. If you do a bit of reading on the Brazilian fella... "First off. The Brazilian on the tube. He was given several instructions from police to stop. I believe from what I've heard but can't be 100% sure jumped the barrier while running from police! still giving clear instructions and ran onto a train. The police involved were on a covert anti terrorist operation so had some reason to believe he was involved in something, enough to show out. He then ran on a train where if he was a terrorist, could have detonated an explosive device." Lee Ruston, an eyewitness who was waiting on the platform, said the police did not identify themselves. The Times reported "senior police sources" as saying that police policy would not require a warning to be given to a suspected suicide bomber before lethal action was taken....The Menezes family was briefed by the police that their son did not jump over the ticket barrier and may have used a Travelcard to pass through; this was subsequently confirmed by CCTV recordings shown at the Metropolitan Police trial. "Now I would rather the police shoot him several times and kill him than take the risk that he doesn't have anything for him to the detonate a device killing innocent people on the train." Would you honestly feel the same if it was one of your, proven to be totally innocent, family members who was shot to death by the very people who are supposed to protect them? I don't think I would be happy to write it off as easily. "The police did not shoot either of these men. It was a human being acting on behalf of the police and the country as a whole." Which is why we should all have been more concerned at the time, as it reflects the state of the country as a whole and the level of accountability when an innocent man is shot to death because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, not because of ANY crime, in the name of the people. "That human being doing a job that doesn't pay all that well considering things he will have to do. Especially when you take into account that the government are attacking his pension and pay structure while increasing there own." I think it's clear to all that pay rates and pensions have no bearing on the discussion around the appropriateness of the use of lethal force on members of the public. By inference, this means if Officer X was paid better, then the public would have the right to question the decision making process which led up to anyone's death at the hands of the police - but if Officer X is paid less, they don't have the right to question. Surely this makes no sense? Anyway, I wasn't trying to start an argument, just questioning the use of lethal force and the rigour of investigation into the actions which led up to it. I think the police do an excellent job by and large, under extremely trying circumstances most of the time, and I wouldn't want to swap places with any one of them, but that's not a reason not to question some of the things they do in service of the general public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 (edited) Maybe I am not recalling correctly, but the Menzies thing started off with claims of jumping barriers, chases and non conformity to instructions in the police report. All independent eye witness accounts though were that he paid through the gate, walked to the train, and was set upon by five police who shot him with little warning. Also I remember the guy had no previous, I think his visitor/work permit has expired, but that was it. Other than that the guy had no affiliation with any terrorist organisation and the intelligence on him was incorrect. I could be wrong, but I think you need to check the facts on this one. As for Duggan, its a different situation, he was fully aware of the situation, a very well known career criminal with violent tendencies, who HAD purchased a weapon when he was set upon. He was going about his business that day with intent to possibly use a firearm, then when given that split second and someone sees something in his hand, I can understand why the police didn't wait to see if he shot them with it. If you play with fire... Edited January 9, 2014 by coldel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arran Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 Stu I meant how the American police force take a no bullshit approach to how they deal with armed threats not their gun laws 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dblock Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 +1. I trust the the police but the ones with guns are pretty unreliable. They make excuses or change the truth so they don't get in trouble. A guy shot a guy because he was trigger happy. You think he would say yeah Im a straight up cold blooded killer. No. He will change the story and some people will beleive it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flex Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 +1. I trust the the police but the ones with guns are pretty unreliable. They make excuses or change the truth so they don't get in trouble. A guy shot a guy because he was trigger happy. You think he would say yeah Im a straight up cold blooded killer. No. He will change the story and some people will beleive it. And perhaps, just perhaps it is the case because unlike USA they're not in the line of fire as much and therefore cant react as well under the same pressure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dblock Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 +1. I trust the the police but the ones with guns are pretty unreliable. They make excuses or change the truth so they don't get in trouble. A guy shot a guy because he was trigger happy. You think he would say yeah Im a straight up cold blooded killer. No. He will change the story and some people will beleive it. And perhaps, just perhaps it is the case because unlike USA they're not in the line of fire as much and therefore cant react as well under the same pressure? Maybe. I don't mean to say the po po are malicious but training means diddly squat if you under extreme pressure, flooded with adrenaline and the assume someone has a gun or is a terrorist. Making a mistake normally means you might pepper spray them of tackle them. Make a mistake with a gun well someone going to die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 From the footage of the Woolwich incident, the police there I thought (in my very simple understanding of how armed police should react) reacted as well as anyone could have expected, and some. I am not sure any of use can really say we understand how well the US handle it - if anything, common sense would say that their police would be even more trigger happy given that pretty much anyone can buy a gun there and use it, not just criminal elements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizurd Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 This guy was involved in some fairly crappy things. Member of a well known gang and violent himself as has already been stated. On the flip side the gun they found had no traces linking it to this guy and there was nothing on him suggesting he'd had the gun. I think with his previous and gang membership he wasn't a shining example of a human being. I'm not a fan of the police generally. I don't know whether the marksman involved was actually just gungho but I can understand that in split seconds you can make mistakes. Unfortunately with guns it's usually a fatal one. As for the troubles afterwards. Load of crap. Most were excuses just to destroy and rob. Hopefully that won't happen again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy78 Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 +1. I trust the the police but the ones with guns are pretty unreliable. They make excuses or change the truth so they don't get in trouble. A guy shot a guy because he was trigger happy. You think he would say yeah Im a straight up cold blooded killer. No. He will change the story and some people will beleive it. And perhaps, just perhaps it is the case because unlike USA they're not in the line of fire as much and therefore cant react as well under the same pressure? Maybe. I don't mean to say the po po are malicious but training means diddly squat if you under extreme pressure, flooded with adrenaline and the assume someone has a gun or is a terrorist. Making a mistake normally means you might pepper spray them of tackle them. Make a mistake with a gun well someone going to die. The flip side though is that you could also make a mistake and you, your colleague or a member of the public are subsequently shot and killed because you hesitated or didn't act quickly enough. I don't envy anyone put in that situation and thankfully incidents like these are very rare in this country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JetSet Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 And perhaps, just perhaps it is the case because unlike USA they're not in the line of fire as much and therefore cant react as well under the same pressure? That's a good point. I don't know the situation in London and the other big cities but around here the armed response units are just ordinary policemen who probably only carry guns when needed. I'm pretty sure that we don't have policemen sitting around waiting for a call out. Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glrnet Posted January 9, 2014 Share Posted January 9, 2014 I'm glad to see that Duggan's Aunt has now come out and publicly appealed for no further violence as a means of protest and that armed police are soon to wear body cameras. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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