Should Scotland vote to leave the UK ?

[ATTAK Z]

When is the vote?

 

September I think

[AJRFulton]

Honestly, as a Scot, I'm actually embarrassed by the whole Yes/No campaigns.

 

The most important question to be asked in the countries modern history, and we're treated to 2 of the most inept campaigns!

 

One campaign is so uninspiring, dull and negative - the other is walking about with it's fingers in it's ears going lalalalala, and saying repeatedly into itself 'och it'll be awright'.

 

For people that aren't peddling an agenda, or hadn't already made their mind up long, long ago.... there is little by the way of fact on which to actually base a decision. The Yes campaign has been particularly awful for this, completely unable to satisfactorily answer any questions relating to economy, currency and energy.

 

Embarrassing, and frankly, our people deserve a lot better than what we've been treated to.

 

I really wish this was over and done with, I'm scunnered with it and I'll be voting No (that is if I'm allowed to vote, as despite contributing a 5 figure tax sum to a Scottish tax office, and continuing to do so, I've the audacity to be workin out the country for a couple of years) by default because the prospect of any of these chancers in both the Yes and No camps having power fills me with dread!

 

Personally the only way I see the Yes vote winning, is if people become scunnered with the whole thing to point they don't bother polling. Perhaps that is part of the Yes tactics, as you can be sure those intent on voting Yes will have a +90% turnout in their bid to get to cry "FREEEEEDOM", because lets face it a significant percentage of those in the Yes camp are voting so because of some faux tribalism, and little other reason. I think those who like me, are intent on voting No by default due to sheer uncertainty and totally disappointing and unconvincing answers from the Yes camp (certainly not because of any argument put forward by the equally inept No campaign), are far less likely to go to the polling station. People who are not firmly rooted in one camp, are starting to become tired of the whole thing.

 

It really is descending to infantile levels at times with debate. One of my oldest friends barely talks to the rest of our social group just now as we're all 'traitors to Scotland', not because we're actively campaigning for no, but because we're totally unconvinced. It's actually quite scary how much he has changed in the last 18mths since he got involved officially in campaigning. TBH I'm quite glad I'm out the country for the next 7mths.

 

It's actually quite depressing the divide this has created amongst a small percentage of folk. Some people, on both sides, but particularly the Yes side, are ridiculously bitter against those of us who don't share their vision.

Edited February 14, 2014 by AJRFulton

[Ekona]

So now we're getting ever-closer to this, and the arguments for and against are a little more played out, where do people stand? Has anyone actually changed their stance at all? Both Brits and Scots welcome to respond.

[Flex]

I like Scotland

[coldel]

I like Scotland also!

 

Still want them to say No, be such an inconvenience for Scots to have to convert 10,000 Scottish dollars into 5 British pounds to pay the toll to get into the UK when visiting by car

Edited August 29, 2014 by coldel

[The G Man]

So now we're getting ever-closer to this, and the arguments for and against are a little more played out, where do people stand? Has anyone actually changed their stance at all? Both Brits and Scots welcome to respond.

 

This Scot, in Afghanistan, with the British Army has not changed his mind, can't comment on how my English, Irish, Fijian, Tongan, Welsh or fellow Scotsmen/women feel.

 

As an Englishman, with obvious exclusive rights to everything British, how do you feel as an outsider without a say in it all?

 

Oh I'm back for R&R when the referendum takes place, even though my employer, The British Army, has provided a service for personnel in foreign climes, risking their lives, to maintain that particular freedom of choice, it's a wonderful gift.

[LRF4N]

Il be voting no. We have separate laws for various things, our own NHS system etc. At the moment we have the best of both so why change it?

 

The cost of starting a whole new country is so high that any potential funds/revenue will quickly be swallowed up

 

They're acting like it's a small business they're setting up not a country

[The Seasider]

If Scotland goes, mark my words it will be Yorkshire next

[Stutopia]

I'm an Englishman who lived in Scotland for around 5 years, I've got great memories of my time north of the border and I'd be sad to see Scotland break away. For purely selfish reasons, it also means the English are stuck with a Tory government for the rest of time, which is a disaster.

 

More objectively speaking, I can't recall one sensible reason I've heard from the Yes nutters that Yes is actually going to be beneficial to Scotland. It's all been chest beating, Braveheart gibberish sprinkled with some chat about how oil is going to last forever and make everyone millionaires. That ship sailed in the 80s, it's too late to try and be Norway. I can't for the life of me figure out how the cost of swapping currency and migrating all of the state infrastructure is going to be recovered, let alone paid for and then a profit made on top for the people to benefit from. It'll cost millions just to change the government letterheads!!!!

 

On the other hand, having had my fair share of stick for having had the audacity to be born 70 miles south of Scotland, I know I don't want to hear any more anti-English guff ever again if Scotland opts to stay in

 

I just hope Scottish people vote with their head and not out of some sort of sense of historical injustice.

[The G Man]

No disrespect mate, but ^^ that is pure mentalist pish.

[ZMANALEX]

No disrespect mate, but ^^ that is pure mentalist pish.

 

Don't hold back George.

[The G Man]

No disrespect mate, but ^^ that is pure mentalist pish.

 

Don't hold back George.

 

Fence sitter, my nickname

[Stutopia]

No disrespect mate, but ^^ that is pure mentalist pish.

 

Any particular bits or is this just Salmond style response?

[Neilp]

No disrespect mate, but ^^ that is pure mentalist pish.

 

Any particular bits or is this just Salmond style response?

Salmond actually done amazing in the debate the other night against Alistair Darling and did have some very good points. If anybody wishes to watch its below.

 

[The G Man]

No disrespect mate, but ^^ that is pure mentalist pish.

 

Any particular bits or is this just Salmond style response?

 

A couple of bits, well most bits, actually all the bits, but hey, that's the beauty of it buddy. Alex Salmond is not the referendum, that's what most in the south don't get, not your fault but if your fed pish by the conservative, unionist press, then by default you are gonna think pish.

 

Think along the lines of a jihadist, fed pish and acts like they are fed pish, not the individual's fault but it's all they know and are fed. Let's just see what happens. If the ramblings of a few right wing bigots that have 'Scotland's interests at heart' and work in Westminster can't debate it and see the writing on the wall, what idiots voted for them.

 

Even if it's a no vote, it won't go away, change is scary for most but you gotta roll with it

[JetSet]

 

 

On the other hand, having had my fair share of stick for having had the audacity to be born 70 miles south of Scotland, I know I don't want to hear any more anti-English guff ever again if Scotland opts to stay in

 

 

 

My dad worked in Aberdeen for a couple of years 1978-1980, he was instrumental in setting up The St. Fergus terminal. He met a lot of anti-English sentiment until he told them he was Welsh (which in theory he was). Everything was sweetness and light after that which I found rather amusing. As I've said before thogh I don't like nationalism it divides people almost as much as religion, just look at the near 50/50 split we have in Scotland right now. Still, this is up to the people of Scotland and in a perverse way it's a no brainer to vote yes, if it goes horribly wrong they can do as they do now, emigrate to England, The States, Canada, etc .

 

Anyway, good luck to them if the "It'll be alright on The Night" party win the day .

 

Pete

[The G Man]

My brother in law is black, when his family came over to London in the fifties they met a lot of anti black racism, so does that mean that everybody in London is/was a racist?

 

No.

 

Just like everyone in Scotland isn't anti English, no offence meant again, but these bone analogies/stories mean nothing.

 

 

[Ekona]

I think you took my last post the wrong way, George. Wasn't meant as a dig, no need to be so defensive bud.

 

The thing I don't get about the Yes vote, is that even this close there is no definitive answer about the currency (having three Plan Bs is not right, there should be a solid plan in place), no definitive answer about Europe (they're still guessing), and no back up plan regarding finances when the oil runs out (which it will, might not be for 100 years but it will). Without those answers in clear English, I can't see how any vote for Yes could be anything other than an illogical punt in the dark with a lot of chest beating thrown in.

 

Part of me now wants a Yes vote, just to see what happens when everything falls down.

[Stutopia]

No disrespect mate, but ^^ that is pure mentalist pish.

 

Any particular bits or is this just Salmond style response?

Salmond actually done amazing in the debate the other night against Alistair Darling and did have some very good points. If anybody wishes to watch its below.

 

 

He did do much better in the debate, but the best debater wins a debate, that's not the same as the best idea winning the debate.

 

 

No disrespect mate, but ^^ that is pure mentalist pish.

 

Any particular bits or is this just Salmond style response?

 

A couple of bits, well most bits, actually all the bits, but hey, that's the beauty of it buddy. Alex Salmond is not the referendum, that's what most in the south don't get, not your fault but if your fed pish by the conservative, unionist press, then by default you are gonna think pish.

 

Think along the lines of a jihadist, fed pish and acts like they are fed pish, not the individual's fault but it's all they know and are fed. Let's just see what happens. If the ramblings of a few right wing bigots that have 'Scotland's interests at heart' and work in Westminster can't debate it and see the writing on the wall, what idiots voted for them.

 

Even if it's a no vote, it won't go away, change is scary for most but you gotta roll with it

 

I didn't mention Salmond in my post, I realise he is not the issue, it's much bigger. As you've brought him up though despite his Standard Grade Body Language Studies forcing him to step out from behind the lectern to "engage", his dismissive attitude and talking over people on subjects that don't suit his agenda, fairly reeks of a man whose priority is a separate state, not a better economy. Lets face it, you can have all the national identity you want, but it doesn't provide job or hospitals or schools.

 

As for the jihadist perspective, not everyone in England laps up the government's right wing rubbish, just because it's on TV or being pedalled by Murdoch publications. I don't think they have even got England's best interests at heart, let alone Scotland's, they're in it to make money for the ruling classes - simple as. Anyone who wants power, is precisely the wrong person for the job. If having Scotland in the UK helps keep at least some of those people in check, all the better for England. Equally, that doesn't mean everything they say is a lie. Particularly around currency, national debt and the huge dependency on future Scotland (say 50 years away) being based on a finite resource as it's main source of income.

 

I'm not against change, but change for a reason, not change for change's sake. At the minute, Scotland has some proper policies we can only wish for in England, like free prescriptions and higher education. If I was voting, I'd be thinking about what else could be improved for the people via the Scottish Parliament, whilst retaining the benefits of being part of a larger, more diverse economy. Not being a brand new, unknown economic quantity, in an enormous global financial market.

[The G Man]

no need to be so defensive bud.

 

I do at the minute buddy

 

It'll all come good in the end

[The G Man]

No disrespect mate, but ^^ that is pure mentalist pish.

 

Any particular bits or is this just Salmond style response?

Salmond actually done amazing in the debate the other night against Alistair Darling and did have some very good points. If anybody wishes to watch its below.

 

 

He did do much better in the debate, but the best debater wins a debate, that's not the same as the best idea winning the debate.

 

 

No disrespect mate, but ^^ that is pure mentalist pish.

 

Any particular bits or is this just Salmond style response?

 

A couple of bits, well most bits, actually all the bits, but hey, that's the beauty of it buddy. Alex Salmond is not the referendum, that's what most in the south don't get, not your fault but if your fed pish by the conservative, unionist press, then by default you are gonna think pish.

 

Think along the lines of a jihadist, fed pish and acts like they are fed pish, not the individual's fault but it's all they know and are fed. Let's just see what happens. If the ramblings of a few right wing bigots that have 'Scotland's interests at heart' and work in Westminster can't debate it and see the writing on the wall, what idiots voted for them.

 

Even if it's a no vote, it won't go away, change is scary for most but you gotta roll with it

 

I didn't mention Salmond in my post, I realise he is not the issue, it's much bigger. As you've brought him up though despite his Standard Grade Body Language Studies forcing him to step out from behind the lectern to "engage", his dismissive attitude and talking over people on subjects that don't suit his agenda, fairly reeks of a man whose priority is a separate state, not a better economy. Lets face it, you can have all the national identity you want, but it doesn't provide job or hospitals or schools.

 

As for the jihadist perspective, not everyone in England laps up the government's right wing rubbish, just because it's on TV or being pedalled by Murdoch publications. I don't think they have even got England's best interests at heart, let alone Scotland's, they're in it to make money for the ruling classes - simple as. Anyone who wants power, is precisely the wrong person for the job. If having Scotland in the UK helps keep at least some of those people in check, all the better for England. Equally, that doesn't mean everything they say is a lie. Particularly around currency, national debt and the huge dependency on future Scotland (say 50 years away) being based on a finite resource as it's main source of income.

 

I'm not against change, but change for a reason, not change for change's sake. At the minute, Scotland has some proper policies we can only wish for in England, like free prescriptions and higher education. If I was voting, I'd be thinking about what else could be improved for the people via the Scottish Parliament, whilst retaining the benefits of being part of a larger, more diverse economy. Not being a brand new, unknown economic quantity, in an enormous global financial market.

 

I'm too shagged at the mo to dissect this, I'll have a go tomoz, but on a quick scan, still a lot of pish in there (haven't got the full range of smilies)

[rtbiscuit]

I have been watching the "unionist" news and have to say, trying to look at the debate from an unbiased opinion taking personal feeling out of the equation and looking solely at the facts laid out by both sides. I struggle to see which direction is the the eight way to vote. Both sides make valid points and both seem to have very polarised views. Sitting at opposite extremes of the argument.

 

I must say with everything out there I think the water has become muddier not clearer.

 

I Think the Scottish people have a difficult decision ahead and I'm kind of glad I don't have to make it

 

I wish them all the best of luck and I hope they get what they want out of it

 

[JetSet]

Anyone who wants power, is precisely the wrong person for the job.

 

Exactly

 

Pete

[JetSet]

 

 

Even if it's a no vote, it won't go away, change is scary for most but you gotta roll with it

 

I'm thinking that if there's a no vote then it'll be a good while before The Scots get another one but yes, it won't go away. Where does it end though, I already hear of The Western Isles, Orkneys, Shetland wanting a further referendum if there's a Yes vote to become independent or remain part of The U.K, they were once part of Norway I believe .

 

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/GettingInvolved/Petitions/islandgroups

 

Pete

[coldel]

The most likely outcome is probably the worst, that the no vote wins 55 to 45. So it doesn't actually put the whole debate to bed but still leaves it open, even though its meant to be a vote on yes or no and thats it. The debate will just rumble on.

 

As I said previously on this thread, my neighbour is CEO of a Scottish power company and knows that the promises made by Salmond on oil and the like are very inaccurate and very short-termist (and this guy has regular meetings with the energy minister of the UK), any money that they think they will make will be swallowed up by the costs they need to recover when they try to cover all the benefits that Scotland offer over England and the rest of the UK in the long run.

 

Somewhat ironic that there is so much anti Tory views from Yes voters when back in the 70s they were really popular as they are believe it or not a low taxation party which sits quite well with Scotland. It was only the closing of industry and the introduction of Poll Tax in Scotland first that changed all that. I am not sure how well high taxation which is Salmonds policy will sit with Scottish people?

 

I am no expert but the way I see it is if they vote Yes, both England and Scotland lose, its just a piece of national pride that wins.