Mini Rant

[Jetpilot]

Views welcome:

 

I am self employed and have been fortunate enough not to have had many issues when it comes to payment for jobs, a few incidents over time, but have got myself quite wound up today.

 

A friend of a friend who i have previously done work for contacted me about a job they wanted doing, i went round to see what they wanted, they went through it, even said, i reckon it will take you a about week, i agreed, said i charge "x" a day so plus materials it will be "x", fine, when can you start.

 

So went in this week, got the job done, a couple of days finished at 4 as waiting for things to dry, filler, coat of paint etc, today comes and money is discussed, so what do i owe you, "x" was the reply, ah, but not very happy with that as you didnt do a full days work on Monday & Wednesday........I explained i got to a point where i physically had nothing more i could do in the day as was waiting for things to dry etc and its still primarily a days work and perhaps i just worked quicker than someone else etc etc

 

I understand, but you havent done a full days work.........a day is 9 - 5. I tried explaining again, i mentioned that they were happy at the overall price and felt like i was being punished for working hard, but you havent done a full days work, so i am not paying you for 5 full days!

 

OK, lessons learnt, if ever i am not sure about a customer i usually get a signed quote returned that they agree to the price, on this occasion and i have had no problems before hand i didnt feel it necessary.

 

My thoughts:

 

What would that customer have said if it taken a day longer and i wanted an extra "£x"?

Was i working an hourly rate?

Do you go to Tescos, buy your food, go back the next day and say, i loved your steak, but i was getting what i thought i was, i want a refund?

[ioneabee]

there was no mention of what a day is defined in hours -you specified a weeks work mon-fri - you agrred an overall price - he owes you that price

 

end of discussion...............getting it though is another issue

 

they often do TV programmes about cowboy builders, but to be honest I see more cowboy clients

[Toon Chris]

That's terrible. You are completely right.

Even though it's not the point, who says a day is 9-5? A day is whatever YOU say it is to get the job done.

 

In retrospect I'd recommend that you don't say x per day you say it will take about x days to finish the job start to finish as a duration of the job, not how much work is involved.

He has basically ripped you off and you should tell your friend that guy is a royal ****.

[Wendy]

I too am self employed.

 

Although I agree with you, sounds like this customer will not, no matter what way you present this to him.

 

So if I may suggest on this occasion you accept this and reduce your rate accordingly for the days so you get paid rather than holding out and not getting paid.

Then put to down to lesson learned.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Wendy

[Flex]

Personally I'd just settle on 'amicable' figure get paid and move on. Life's too short for stress.

[Jetpilot]

The worse thing to me is, she even said, i reckon it will take about a week.....

 

The situation is complicated so sadly cant tell her what i think, it will come round to bite her in the end though, that is the only consolation.

 

A figure was settled on because of the surrounding complications (friend of a friend)

[Grundy]

Another way to get them to look at it is (Because I know this, dads been in the trade his whole life, I've worked for him for several months)

So many times would we stay on late or come in early just to get something finished. As Chris says, who defines what a days work is. Even if it was 9-5 and you stayed on till 6/7, you wouldn't then say I want more at the end of the week, you would of been happy with the agreed price.

 

Some people will do anything to worm out of money.

[Jetpilot]

Exactly, one of the reasons for going self employed was because it encouraged me to work hard, when i was employed i was paid the same regardless of how much work i did in a day or week. Some weeks were busy, some easy, you took the rough with the smooth. I felt being self employed i was in the power of my own destiny, if i work hard i would reap the rewards so it aggrieves me when a customer preaches about the principals of the length of the day, not what you have achieved in that day!! I vividly remember clocking in and out of work, didnt realise it was the same when you were self employed....

[350zedd]

Ok, so you lost an hour on Monday & Wednesday, so whats that, 2 hrs labour around £40 all in all (I'm assuming).

Just put it down to experience.

Not worth losing any sleep over, just be careful how you word things in future before you start a job, or better still put it in writing.

[mrt]

Interesting problem and as a " customer " I have many times been quoted for a job ( my garden hedges for example ) about £200. The guy usually says it's about a day and a half work. Then two guys turn up and do the job in less then three hours. I always pay the agreed sum but feel that two guys x three hours equals six hours at over £30 per hour for unskilled labouring and removing the waste.

Mind you, they do a good job and I get the work done quickly and out of the way. Would probably take me two days on my own !

The best way for you to quote would be to offer a fixed price and don,t estimate the time to do the job except in loose terms. Alternately quote an hourly rate.

[Jetpilot]

The only reason i mentioned the price on this job was my rates have just gone up and this particular customer previously paid my old rate, so felt i should mention my new daily rate, so as to explain how it gets to "x".

 

So question for mrt, if your hedge cutting dude said its £30 per hour + waste removal and will take 6 hours, would you still have used him?

[Toon Chris]

Interesting problem and as a " customer " I have many times been quoted for a job ( my garden hedges for example ) about £200. The guy usually says it's about a day and a half work. Then two guys turn up and do the job in less then three hours. I always pay the agreed sum but feel that two guys x three hours equals six hours at over £30 per hour for unskilled labouring and removing the waste.

Mind you, they do a good job and I get the work done quickly and out of the way. Would probably take me two days on my own !

The best way for you to quote would be to offer a fixed price and don,t estimate the time to do the job except in loose terms. Alternately quote an hourly rate.

 

That's an interesting situation. Quoting an excessive amount of time make the customer happier about accepting a higher price.

If your guys had said it will take 3 hours and will cost £200 you may not have been biting off their hand to give them the work.

 

In general, when the discrepancy is excessive you might feel ripped off, but for Jetpilot we are talking about a few hours and that's still penny-pinching.

[mrt]

Difficult one to answer but all I can say is that if they had quoted me £200 for six hours work the first time I would have chased them away cause I would have argued that it was excessive. However, the standard and speed makes up to some extent and to be honest, I just go out for lunch and when I return the mess has gone. I,ve also got a regular gardener who charges £15 per hour but he has neither the tools,ladders etc.nor the speed of the two outside contractors. Four large hedges approx 80 foot long each. 1 Hawthorn,

2 conifer,1 hazel

[Ekona]

Charge him travelling timeon top, make it more than what he's removing. That'll teach the tight *****.

 

 

It's not Stuarty you're working for, is it?

[Commander]

I'm in IT, not Building, but we've had similar problems with our customers. We've now moved to a model where we quote on the job costing 'x' and don't even discuss days... It's a fixed scope for a fixed price. We obviously have a day-budget in the back of our minds, but the customer doesn't get to see it.

[Fodder]

We had a similar issue last year but from a customers perspective.

 

We wanted a new bathroom and as the OH father is a tradesman he gave us several names he had worked with in the past and was happy with the quality of their work.

 

The guy we settled with quoted 2 weeks +materials with a fixed daily rate which was in line with the other quotes. We were supplying the big items, suite, shower, underfloor heating, tiles etc as well as sorting the actual electrical work as the OH's dad had that in hand.

 

Also he would be given a shell of a room with just a toilet to remove for obvious reasons.

 

Before he started we raised what could be an issue with him and he thought it wasn't that big a deal and would add an extra day at most.

 

After a week we could see the quality of his work was superb but we had expected to be further on that he was.

 

He said he may over run by a couple of days and explained there was a problem with the stack and the issue we had already identified as a potential issue.

 

He took 22 working days in total and billed us for 18. As you can imagine over double the estimate was a bit excessive.

 

We discussed it with him and agreed to pay the 18 days as the quality of work was fantastic but we weren't happy with his method of getting the work.

 

I can't deny he did a fantastic job and yes some days he finished an hour or so earlier which was fine by us as that like the OP something's can't be rushed with things like plaster etc.

 

I just wish he'd been upfront about it as I belivee he knew the way he worked it was going to be at least 3 weeks.

 

I don't think the OP was being unreasonable at all and even though the customer feels he was finishing early what's to say you weren't out sourcing materials for the next day?!

 

Edit: sorry he billed for 20 days but we negotiated 18 days.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Fodder

[coldel]

As above, lesson learned. You could have just turned around and said when you went home early you had only taken 10 minutes for lunch etc. 9-5 in a manual labour trade is nonsense as far as I can see, its £x for the job and thats that. You estimate how long it takes and there is some leeway in that as you can never foresee problems or things that speed or slow down the process.

 

Just say actually, when you went home early you had to do extra planning for the job because of <insert some crap here> problems so actually both those days you worked 9-7 so can you will charge more...

[Martinjj]

It's far easier dealing with a bloke than a woman, not only are you up against a species that is gifted in the art of "throwing a tantrum" but your also up against all those weird hormones that make them picky, fickle, argumentative and down right stubborn, they would even argue with a bald headed baby should the mood take them.

[Jetpilot]

It's far easier dealing with a bloke than a woman, not only are you up against a species that is gifted in the art of "throwing a tantrum" but your also up against all those weird hormones that make them picky, fickle, argumentative and down right stubborn, they would even argue with a bald headed baby should the mood take them.

 

I hate to say it, but the only issues i have ever had on site is with women

[Ekona]

Women and South African men. That's the only two people I've butted heads with on site.

[Humpy]

Charge him travelling timeon top, make it more than what he's removing. That'll teach the tight *****.

 

 

It's not Stuarty you're working for, is it?

[rtbiscuit]

My mate had a similar issue, client would pay the price of the job, she asked for a new bill removing something like £30 she felt wasn't needed. So he re billed her for the extra £60 of work he did for free on top with the £30 off. Funnily enough she paid the original bill.

[Wendy]

My Builder/Carpenters and the like - offer to do a quote. They explain they will take into account everything on the job going wrong - so in effect 'cover themselves.

I have an option to pay this price irrelevant of how long the job takes of which they only estimate. Or, I can take the risk and go for their Day Rate.

The Day Rate - would include working an 8am to 4.30 day approx, and collecting stock etc within this time frame. They usually stop for a 30 minutes lunch break.

Being in a house that has only me as the 3rd owner in 48 years and knowing it has not been previoulsy botched. I go for the Day Rate.

 

One of my Clients (I do his Accounts),is an Electrician - He Quotes - then reguarly if the job came in at less time, half a day or more - he reguarly reduces the labour element of the job. Although this works for him - personally I totally disagree both on a professional front - of being my client, but to me - A Quote is a Quote - otherwise it is an Estimate - which can change. The latter often needs explaining to Clients.

 

My business, I charge by the hour, and if I have done 2 and 1/4 hours work I charge for that exactly. I do not charge out my Lunch Time, but I do charge my travel time from home plus mileage. I am completely upfront about all my charging. When questioned about the home travel to work and mileage - I politely explain - I would be staying at home otherwise and not having the expense myself.

Usually if my price is queried, I will not take on the client - you can almost guarantee there will be problems further down the road. While mentioning all this and hopefully assisting. I also explain in detail My Credit Terms - which are 7 days from receipt of invoice and advise I will be chasing these if not paid - which I do at 15 days. I advise I will not be working next month for them without the previous month paid. All this may sound harsh to some. But in my book, business is business - if you want a professional............and all that......... I am also fully booked.

 

I do appreciate differing trades have to operate in differing ways, but..........hopefully there might be something in all that to consider going forward ?

Good Luck.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Wendy

[Stutopia]

I'm a contractor and my rates are daily, some contracts define what 'a day' is and some don't. I generally keep a track of my hours and if they drift over a 40 hr week once or twice, it's usually swings and roundabouts and I'll get an hour back here and there - all very grown up and fair.

 

Sounds like your client is being a dick and I'm sure if you had had to put in a few extra hours they wouldn't be volunteering @*!# all extra for those hours. Sadly all you can do is suck it up and never do any work for them again.

 

Some people know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

[Ebized]

Hmmmmm OP, you could play at him at his own game there.

 

Two things. If you didn't mention what your working was day was that could be 9 to 4 , but if more realistically you are like most of the trades I have used start is normally 8/8.30 and finish at 4/4.30.

 

And in my book if they finish early and the job done is good - good luck to them, as quite often on other jobs delays can crop up (i.e. material availiability not checked beforehand ) which can mean they take longer than expected, but that is their misfortune. Unless it is something byond their reasonable control and is negotiated while the the job is in progress.

 

Hope you do get the money you quoted, but if he continues to be a pig, not worth losing sleep over and just make sure you don't help him again and your friend knows why that will be the case