Brexit 23rd June..?

[Adrian@TORQEN]

 

The houses aren't all purchased directly by the immigrants but by landlords to meet the rising demand for rented property.

 

Correct, that's a small part of the problem, but have you actually clicked the links I've posted there that explain clearly what drives the housing prices up? You'll be surprised, is not the EU immigration...

[Ekona]

Also, the new stamp duty on BTLs will do far more for the housing market than a few thousand immigrants ever will.

[Adrian@TORQEN]

Meanwhile in Wales :lol:

 

[HaydnH]

I know, I know, but biased, as you've already made your mind up (with different background reasons) and you're just picking stuff in your favour

 

I haven't made my mind up yet, I think I'm currently leaning towards leave but not by much... on the remain side of my brain: I'm not a huge fan of Cameron but Boris or Corbyn as the next PM?!?

 

 

Meanwhile in Wales :lol:

 

I saw that on Facebook and it genuinely made me laugh!

[StevoD]

[GappySmeg]

 

I haven't made my mind up yet, I think I'm currently leaning towards leave but not by much... on the remain side of my brain: I'm not a huge fan of Cameron but Boris or Corbyn as the next PM?!?

 

 

Please don't vote based on the personnel involved... politicians in this country can be voted out every 4-or-so years, and they often don't even last that long... whereas a vote to leave is to all intents and purposes, permanent. (Remain less so, as we could force another referendum in the future... coz this one has been soooooo much fun )

[Ponsonby]

The EU is not perfect, we all know that.

But when the alternative is a leap into the unknown with potential significant financial consequences, it is not really much of an alternative.

Seems to be too much of 'lets vote out and see what happens' and no real tangible plan.

 

Some people are brave enough to leave their current job and then start looking for another - but they usually have a plan and some savings behind them. Most people have something else lined up properly and in writing before leaving....

[rtbiscuit]

The EU is not perfect, we all know that.

But when the alternative is a leap into the unknown with potential significant financial consequences, it is not really much of an alternative.

Seems to be too much of 'lets vote out and see what happens' and no real tangible plan.

 

Some people are brave enough to leave their current job and then start looking for another - but they usually have a plan and some savings behind them. Most people have something else lined up properly and in writing before leaving....

 

No great leaps of progress were ever made taking the safe option

 

the bigger the risk often the bigger the reward.

 

how would i know i like Vietnamese food if i hadn't taken a leap, the Manhattan project would never have got off the ground if people took the safe option, Columbus would never have found america, and Raleigh would never have brought us back the potato. nelson would never have beaten the french. people would still be walking if someone hadn't taken the risk of getting on a horse. trains would still be doing 15mph if someone hadn't taken the risk of going faster.

 

to vote purely on the safe option because you're worried about the outcome is a shame, staying in europe is like buying tickets for the titanic after its hit the iceberg.

[HaydnH]

staying in europe is like buying tickets for the titanic after its hit the iceberg.

 

That's pretty much where I'm at presently, everyone is saying that economically staying in Europe is the safer option... really? I reckon our economy is likely to be slightly weaker short term and somewhere between the same to stronger mid to long term if we leave. If we stay it's going to be anywhere between a total collapse to just about the same.

[Juggalo]

It's really simple. If you want an accountable, democraticly elected government that you can remove for doing a bad job, vote Out.

If you want a country that can creat trade deals with all 200 countries on the planet, from Andorra to Zanzibar, Vote Out.

 

If you want unnaccountable, unelected officials making rules up for you, that you can't remove, vote In.

If you want zero freedom to make trade deals, and bank your economic prosperity with just 28 countries, Vote In

 

That's essentially what this vote boils down to when you leave migration out of it.

[NeilMH]

The EU is not perfect, we all know that.

But when the alternative is a leap into the unknown with potential significant financial consequences, it is not really much of an alternative.

Seems to be too much of 'lets vote out and see what happens' and no real tangible plan.

 

Some people are brave enough to leave their current job and then start looking for another - but they usually have a plan and some savings behind them. Most people have something else lined up properly and in writing before leaving....

 

No great leaps of progress were ever made taking the safe option

 

the bigger the risk often the bigger the reward.

 

how would i know i like Vietnamese food if i hadn't taken a leap, the Manhattan project would never have got off the ground if people took the safe option, Columbus would never have found america, and Raleigh would never have brought us back the potato. nelson would never have beaten the french. people would still be walking if someone hadn't taken the risk of getting on a horse. trains would still be doing 15mph if someone hadn't taken the risk of going faster.

 

to vote purely on the safe option because you're worried about the outcome is a shame, staying in europe is like buying tickets for the titanic after its hit the iceberg.

 

Just on a point of order, the owners had such belief in the Titanic that they took the major leap of faith by providing just a small number of lifeboats, relative to the number of passengers on board.

[Adrian@TORQEN]

It's really simple. If you want an accountable, democraticly elected government that you can remove for doing a bad job, vote Out.

You get to vote for MEPs.

More about the Brussel bureaucrats here: https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-brussels-bureaucrats/

More about the democracy within EU: https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-democracy/

 

If you want a country that can creat trade deals with all 200 countries on the planet, from Andorra to Zanzibar, Vote Out.

Did you include Kosovo, Taiwan, Western Sahara, Greeland and Palestine as well? Otherwise 194 to be precise

 

If you want unnaccountable, unelected officials making rules up for you, that you can't remove, vote In.

Rules and regulations are good, just like on this forum. I got banned once, you know... I didn't agree with the ban from the bloody forum bureaucrats, but if I want to stay here and benefit from the wonderful community and friends here, I need to adhere to the rules. Quite fair, isn't it?

More here: https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-regulation-and-single-market/

and here: https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts-behind-claims-trade-rules/

 

If you want zero freedom to make trade deals, and bank your economic prosperity with just 28 countries, Vote In

We can still trade with countries outside the EU through EU deals. It's good not to have the EU market flooded with "cheap Chinese knockoffs and replicas" isn't it?

 

[coldel]

The EU is not perfect, we all know that.

But when the alternative is a leap into the unknown with potential significant financial consequences, it is not really much of an alternative.

Seems to be too much of 'lets vote out and see what happens' and no real tangible plan.

 

Some people are brave enough to leave their current job and then start looking for another - but they usually have a plan and some savings behind them. Most people have something else lined up properly and in writing before leaving....

 

No great leaps of progress were ever made taking the safe option

 

the bigger the risk often the bigger the reward.

 

how would i know i like Vietnamese food if i hadn't taken a leap, the Manhattan project would never have got off the ground if people took the safe option, Columbus would never have found america, and Raleigh would never have brought us back the potato. nelson would never have beaten the french. people would still be walking if someone hadn't taken the risk of getting on a horse. trains would still be doing 15mph if someone hadn't taken the risk of going faster.

 

to vote purely on the safe option because you're worried about the outcome is a shame, staying in europe is like buying tickets for the titanic after its hit the iceberg.

 

Bigger the risk, the bigger potentially the reward but also the bigger chance of failure.

 

I am not averse to risk, but with Columbus sailing off into the distance he potentially was going to find a whole new world and people. Which has been my argument from the start, the potential benefits have to outweigh the risk which of all the stuff I have seen and read just doesn't come close.

 

...and you would have just ordered something else if you didn't like Vietnamese food I am sure

[chips]

Apparently Corbin has admitted Britain would be unable to cap immigration if we remain. For or against immigration, being unable to control levels its not good imho

 

Indeed. I'm fairly pro-immigration, but I'm certainly not up for a free for all.

 

Yes, I don't support a free for all but one of the main problems as I see it is the success of the U.K economy, if we weren't doing so well then the country wouldn't be so attractive, a sort of catch 22 situation. It would seem to me that one of the fears that many have is that the country will be less British but history doesn't support that, for example anyone who visits The United States will know how patriotic they are (flags in gardens) yet the U.S had millions and millions of immigrants who rapidly assimilated into the country, pretty much the same for Australia and Canada, anyone remember assisted passages BTW?

 

I'm a great believer that people should not be restricted to the country of their birth, In fact I think that humans should be able to move around the world freely rather than being stuck in the lump of land they happen to be born in (I'm quite a dreamer at times ) I realize that this just isn't remotely feasible and probably never will be.

 

Pete

 

You're not a dreamer! The advance of technology makes this more feasible as we go. In the past many issues were simply not an option due something as cheap and accessible now as long distance travel.

Looking further, In an advanced society there is a galactic alliance and they look back on 20/21st century humans and don't believe or understand how there was the culture of destructiveness to the environment and anger to others.

 

I learned all this I know from Star Trek. Which isn't so far fetched.

Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, save the whales!

 

So looking at it that way, EU was a step in that direction.

 

On the other side, because of these technologies and changes it's hard to regress and stay there and to what level/point in time is acceptable and ideal for leave?

 

Modern technology for travel and communications for citizens and prevalence of multinational businesses makes the world smaller so it's a hard one to hold back or return to.

 

I'm one of those worst of all type immigrants - Father from Commonwealth colony, Mother from UK parents and then born and raised in another commonwealth country. And at the end of it ended up here in some sort of crazy full circle type movement!

 

I'd say I've had a pretty good life thanks to the U.K's pioneering spirit to get out there more than any other nation to start with and then taking people, ideas, acceptance from all over the world which has given the country so many good things over others and makes it such a great place today that would be far poorer culturally had it not have happened.

Being in the EU holds a lot of doors open in many ways, none of which I see as detrimental I see this country as having a lot to give.

[docwra]

Im actually getting angry with this now, so many people with so little idea what they are talking about are going to shape the future of the UK. They really, really should have kept this as a Houses of Parliament vote I think, its too complex. The number of people using the future of our country as some kind of popularity contest between Cameron and Boris is ****ing scary, frankly.

 

It's really simple. If you want an accountable, democraticly elected government that you can remove for doing a bad job, vote Out.

 

You do know that you vote for MEP's, right? You also know that the vast majority of law that actually affects you has nothing to do with the EU, and its generally accepted that the laws they have imposed (mainly human rights and business law) are positive, and that without EU protrection the Tories would be bumming anyone on less than 50K a year?

 

If you want a country that can creat trade deals with all 200 countries on the planet, from Andorra to Zanzibar, Vote Out.

 

We already have trade deals with a lot of countries though and would be walking away from those if we left, also bear in mind we are a net importer so dont have a lot to negotiate with.

I dont know if youve checked the import/export tariffs imposed by the WTO but we wouldnt be able to compete on them - Ive read that some of the EU contribution we save could be given to exporters to compensate but I wont be holding my breath .......... besides, robbing Peter to pay Paul is hardly good economic sense.

 

If you want unnaccountable, unelected officials making rules up for you, that you can't remove, vote In.

 

And who did you vote for in the last House of Lords elections? You know, the guys that have power of veto over every single law passed through the elected house?

 

If you want zero freedom to make trade deals, and bank your economic prosperity with just 28 countries, Vote In

 

Trade deals, fair enough but that hasnt stopped us becoming the 5th largest economy globally with 12 consecutive quarters of growth, low unemployment and increasing GDP. Im pretty happy with that.

 

That's essentially what this vote boils down to when you leave migration out of it.

 

At least one "in voter" has got this then - immigration wont really be affected if we leave. All that will happen is our economy will become considerably more unstable and while Id be the first to admit that 10 years after Brexit we might be better off, we certainly wont be in the first 5.

Edited June 22, 2016 by docwra

[Juggalo]

You get to vote for MEPs

 

Not the same, and you know it. the EU Commission hold the power and makes the rules. You get no votes, no say. They're unaccountable, and unelectable.

 

Rules and regulations are good, just like on this forum. I got banned once, you know... I didn't agree with the ban from the bloody forum bureaucrats, but if I want to stay here and benefit from the wonderful community and friends here, I need to adhere to the rules. Quite fair, isn't it?

More here: https://fullfact.org...-single-market/

and here: https://fullfact.org...ms-trade-rules/

 

That's a non answer. The EU commission is not a web forum with no power overyour life and your Nation.

 

We can still trade with countries outside the EU through EU deals. It's good not to have the EU market flooded with "cheap Chinese knockoffs and replicas" isn't it?

 

We have no trade deals with the USA. We're not allowed. We're not allowed to create trade deals with anyone unless the EU says so. We're locked out of free trade agreements with the world.

What the EU want to give is is TTIP, which is another EU imposed nightmare for the UK.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Juggalo

[GappySmeg]

You get to vote for MEPs

 

Not the same, and you know it. the EU Commission hold the power and makes the rules. You get no votes, no say. They're unaccountable, and unelectable.

 

 

That's not really accurate though is it. The Commission is APPOINTED by the Council, in the exact same way our Lords are appointed by our Commons. They have a term (just like our Lords) after which they have to be re-appointed or ditched by whatever elected Council (or Commons) are in place at that time.

It's a time-honoured and well-established shape for a democratic 2-house system, used the world over.

[Ekona]

We will have TTIP whether we stay or go. No reasonable person can possibly expect otherwise.

 

The more I think about this whole thing, the more convinced I am that absolutely nothing will change regardless of the outcome. However, if we do vote to leave I'm going to start practicing my "I told you so!" speech.

[Juggalo]

You get to vote for MEPs

 

Not the same, and you know it. the EU Commission hold the power and makes the rules. You get no votes, no say. They're unaccountable, and unelectable.

 

 

That's not really accurate though is it. The Commission is APPOINTED by the Council, in the exact same way our Lords are appointed by our Commons. They have a term (just like our Lords) after which they have to be re-appointed or ditched by whatever elected Council (or Commons) are in place at that time.

It's a time-honoured and well-established shape for a democratic 2-house system, used the world over.

 

How does that make what I said not accurate?

You've just agreed that the decision making system is APPOINTED, not voted. That the system of decision making...the place where the real power is, is APPOINTED, not democratically elected.

[Juggalo]

We will have TTIP whether we stay or go. No reasonable person can possibly expect otherwise.

 

The more I think about this whole thing, the more convinced I am that absolutely nothing will change regardless of the outcome. However, if we do vote to leave I'm going to start practicing my "I told you so!" speech.

 

Man, you're so apathetic. With that attitude then yeah, we'll get the government and policies we deserve.

[Adrian@TORQEN]

[GappySmeg]

You get to vote for MEPs

 

Not the same, and you know it. the EU Commission hold the power and makes the rules. You get no votes, no say. They're unaccountable, and unelectable.

 

 

That's not really accurate though is it. The Commission is APPOINTED by the Council, in the exact same way our Lords are appointed by our Commons. They have a term (just like our Lords) after which they have to be re-appointed or ditched by whatever elected Council (or Commons) are in place at that time.

It's a time-honoured and well-established shape for a democratic 2-house system, used the world over.

 

How does that make what I said not accurate?

You've just agreed that the decision making system is APPOINTED, not voted. That the system of decision making...the place where the real power is, is APPOINTED, not democratically elected.

 

Because, it's not true to say you "no say", as you put it... it's a gross over-simplification.

 

No democracy is perfect, its always a compromise... people have been trying to find the best compromise since the ancient Greeks.

 

The EU democratic system is every bit as democratic (or un-democratic, depending on your viewpoint) as the UK system.

[Ekona]

I'm really not apathetic, I have incredibly passionate views when it comes to UK politics. However, in this case I can't see HOW anything would change!

 

We need immigration levels where they are, if not higher.

We'd need to follow EU rules to trade anyway.

We'll still end up with the TTIP.

We'll end up in the exact same place, just with no seat at the table and billions of pounds in lawyer fees down.

 

 

Remind me again why we should leave?

Edited June 22, 2016 by Ekona

[HaydnH]

Finally a break from the main stream news and politicians bickering! This is one of the best set of arguments for Leave I've read. It's lengthy but I'd recommend anyone voting to read it. As the author states, it was written in a rush so could use an editor in places, however the arguments seem pretty solid and are backed up with references and examples. It even offers arguments why the leave camp aren't using some of the legitimate leave arguments they could use:

 

The UK Left was won over to the EU project by the eighth president of the European Commission Jacques Delors in the 1980s. Thatcher was regnant and this charming man promised that the EU would ride to the rescue. Battered by defeats, the Labour movement turned 180 degrees and became EU loyalists. But as Tuck notes in Dissent, ‘The same structures that Delors promised to use in the interests of the working class turned out by the time of the 2007–08 financial crash to have been used instead to push through a variety of neoliberal economic and social policies that have only damaged the European working class.’ Hence the near silence on the left during this campaign about the abject misery of Greece, or the trauma of 50% youth unemployment in Spain, or the remarkable pursuit of TTIP.

 

http://hurryupharry.org/2016/06/20/why-i-am-voting-leave-by-professor-alan-johnson/

 

 

I think I'm edging even more towards leave now, if anyone has come across any similar articles written from a remain perspective I'd be interested to read it... I'll be googling myself for something now to counter balance.

[Adrian@TORQEN]

"I am a migrant from the European Union. You have probably heard lots of things about people like me in the referendum campaign, but you may not have actually heard from any of us. We have got more to lose than anyone else – our livelihoods depend on the outcome – but we do not have a voice, or a vote.

 

I came to live in the UK in 1998, to study for a PhD. Before that, in 1993-94, I had been an exchange student here, partly funded by the EU’s Erasmus programme. It was on that occasion that I got to know and love Britain as an open-minded and welcoming country. My landlady was one of the kindest and warmest people I have ever met. My fellow students later came to visit me at my (then) home in Berlin, and I’m still friends with many of them. I returned to Britain as soon I could.

 

After finishing my PhD, I embarked on a post-doc and then moved to another university, where I worked for eight years, before taking up my current post. I have profited from the openness of UK academia and the mobility offered by EU membership. I have very rarely encountered prejudice or discrimination, and have been able to thrive as a result.

 

My laboratory would fall apart if Britain left the EU

 

Give and take

But, as in any good partnership, I have given a lot back. I have worked hard to educate thousands of students over the years. I have undertaken research and written books and articles. I have worked as a head of department and an external examiner, and taken on countless administrative roles at my own institutions and in other bodies.

 

There are thousands of people like me at British universities – one study puts the figure at 15 per cent – and the country has undoubtedly benefited from the international nature of this workforce. To compete internationally, the UK’s universities have to be able to attract the best talent, wherever it is found. Success in the international rankings relies on their ability to do just that.

 

If the UK votes to leave, it will become less attractive not only for EU nationals, but for the brightest and best across the world. Several US-born colleagues, for example, have told me that one of the reasons they settled in the UK was because indefinite leave to remain here gave them access to the EU.

 

But the signs are ominous. The referendum campaign has created an atmosphere of hostility towards immigrants, in ways I have never experienced in my 18 years in this country. We are being blamed for the state of public services such as health, housing and education, and for undercutting wages, even though the real culprits – chronic underinvestment, poor planning, ineffective governance and watered-down labour laws – are entirely homemade.

 

The tales of intimidation and threats against pro-Remain campaigners, immigrants and their supporters are a cause for serious concern. There is no doubt that many Leave proponents are decent, thoughtful people, but there is also no doubt that parts of the campaign have played on xenophobia and emboldened nasty, violent racists." "

 

http://www.theguardian.com/higher-education-network/2016/jun/21/for-the-first-time-in-18-years-i-dont-feel-welcome-in-britain