gangzoom Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 The ICE is inefficient, noisy, old hat, thirsty, dirty, and smelly. And I love them and hope they never die. Electric motors may be able to deliver 100% power and torque instantly at zero rpm, but all that means is you either need to limit it electronically with fancy traction control systems, or you sit there spinning wheels and wasting energy. The latter is pointless, and the former just further removes the driver from involvement. For the record, I don't hugely like fancy traction systems and torque vectoring in ICE cars either (I'm looking at you, GT-R and 488!), but at least they have the benefit of making pleasing noises and smells. Much like how the Cayenne supported the 911 and Boxster, I'll be happy if EVs exist alongside ICE to allow them to carry on being awesome. The nightmare is if they replace them altogether. Might as well make them all driverless and trundle along at 50mph everywhere, at least they'll be serving their ultimate goal then. Because that's where the EV is heading, and if you love the technology that much you'll be sharing that goal. I'm sure V12 wouldn't die, horse racing is as big industry as ever....As for driverless cars, we all know every car manufacture has been developing them long before EVs appeared. EVs will actually accelerate their appearance, simply because you have much better electronic throttle control with an electric motor than any ICE unit, so adjustments to power can be made much quicker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Again, another reason to hate EVs! As a keen driver, you cannot be happy with driverless cars on the horizon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebized Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Enjoying the debate but for goodness sake StevoD/Jetpilot please stop belittling that by language/comments that if continued will only end up in the OP's thread being locked. Everyone is entitled to an opinion - my own is that electric cars have been around for over 100 years but all the while the oil barons control the global economy we will only see meaningful development if there is the political will. Oh, and for a few years I was involved with the trial tests of fully electric Peugots and Citreon vans that were then withdrawn by those companies as they one by one broke down. A lot of interest back then in the 1990's but development stalled. Great fun on grass though with the heavy battery packs adding helping the handbrake turns Yes, as a means of transport they are probably the future, but not at Tesla prices for the masses. And I'm afraid this petrolhead will no more look at putting his hard-earned into owning one of them, anymore that I would buy another diesel.........(made that mistake once ) Oh bugger, and just reminded myself that I might have to eat my words as I get ever nearer to mobility scooter age Suppose we all have make compromises at times..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Again, another reason to hate EVs! As a keen driver, you cannot be happy with driverless cars on the horizon? As a keen drunk, I'm extremely happy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brillomaster Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 driverless cars are fine when you're not in them... imagine how much more smoothly motorways will flow with people keeping to the right lane and merging correctly, rather than the free for all it is at the moment. and think of the A road scenario, each autonomous car following a safe distance behind the one in front, leaving lots of gaps to enable the human controlled car to safely overtake. and then when you do overtake, rather than a numpty flashing you and pulling right up to your bumper, the autonomous car will simply let off the throttle a bit to regain a safe gap. cant wait for autonomous cars, for other people - 90% of people on the road dont want to be driving anyways, so put them in safer autonomous cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Again, another reason to hate EVs! As a keen driver, you cannot be happy with driverless cars on the horizon? For commuting from A to B, I wish I had a drive less car for the last 18 months when I was doing 100 miles+ a day, and wasting 3hrs of life on the road. For 'fun', clearly not, but I don't see complete automation coming any time soon.....You would need a self aware AI for that kind of automation. Strangely though, whilst Google is busy developing smarter and deeper AI (Which is why the Google Search engine is so good, because it tries to 'understand' the meaning of a page, and question), all the brightest minds agree that a self-aware AI is closer than anyone one thinks, and when it does appear, we probably wouldn't know it, until it's too late. May just be a load of rubbish, but when Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Steven Hawkings all sign up and paid money into a research project to try and develop a 'friendly' AI, who knows....Tesla incidently has the most 'automated/robotised' production lines in the world....So instead making cars.... I would imagine it wouldn't take a super intelligent AI very long to work out how to mass produce these things instead....stick a M16 on that thing, and ummm...yes, well, you wouldn't have to pay £8 to go and watch the latest Terminator spin-off at the cinema....So your right, may be we shouldn't chase after progress just for the sake of it http://www.wired.com...rightest-minds/ Edited June 30, 2015 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) So gangzoom/stevo lets say you have persuaded me the tech will be there and ev's are the future and by "x" 80% of the vehicles on the road will be ev's, where will we get all the electricity to charge them and how much will electric cost by then, will the government then put duty on it to compensate for lack of revenue? this has been dicussed Its been skirted around as no one has an answer So where is the electric coming from and how much will it cost, less than a litre of fuel now to comparative mpg? No one has an answer because no one knows. Grid capacity is already a concern for energy companies without EVs. Hence the push for more and more renewable power generation. After all wind/sun is 'free', unlike coal/gas/nuclear power stations which are very expensive to run But is it not a major concern now you are an ev convert? I am in the building industry and know a fair bit about renewables. Wind farms are a different story for me but again quite appropriate for where i live. Navitus Bay want to set up a wind farm off the Dorset coast, the figures are impressive, but guess what, there is massive objection because people dont want their view spoiled, it doesnt bother me one jot, would bring in great revenue for the area and might as well look at some turbines miles in the distance than just horizon. We also have a load of farms who are now building solar farms, solely because of the return they can generate from the buy back scheme, i,e its more profitable than farming. We have at this time no choice but to generate electric from, burning fossil fuels, nuclear and a smattering from the sun/wind (possibly tidal) etc and cant see some new way just appearing from no where. So at the moment we are left with burning fossil fuels/nuclear and crap batteries. I am afraid i cannot see its sustainable. If you think thats narrowed minded or head buried in the sand thats your opinion, but i think there are some rational points to consider. Seeing as your a Tesla fanboi would you know how long the batteries would last if you are driving it to its potential? I.e a track day? Edited June 30, 2015 by Jetpilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted June 30, 2015 Author Share Posted June 30, 2015 (edited) Completely off-topic: But some people have already created an AI that can play Atari video games better than any human, and now working on a version to play 3D games like Quake. This is talking about taking a bit of 'code', which start off with no understanding about how to play any game or it's rules, and than 'setting it loss' on a video game - and seeing happens. The scary bit is when the programer admits they had 'no idea the code would be able to develop 'longterm' memory, because they hadn't added in that bit of code', ie: The bit of 'code' developed in a way that was un-predicted by the programmers - Putting it in evolution terms, the code, 'evolved' and adapted it self to become better - That in my book is bordering on creep levels of AI, the ONLY things in nature that can adapt and evolve is living creatures Edited June 30, 2015 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAMLNJ Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 OMG! I really wish I had this amount of time on my hands. I don't like to be negative on here but I only jumped on this thread to see the state of the conversation. If I had the time to write huge amounts of text about what seems an absolute silly argument over early tech and long established tech I would be building my own bloody car, that has 3 turbos and runs on flowers! Jesus. Bad as my mrs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeezeebaba Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Nothing wrong with the advancement of technology. Harmonising EV with an ever improving solar tech industry will result I'm sure in a vehicle that uses less mains power overall. I'm currently keeping tabs on the solar plane adventure taking place. Yes the tech probably has decades to go before becoming mainstream but it will happen. In the interim we see more small blown petrol hybrid crossovers and I imagine diesels becoming less popular due to emissions regs. I think it's great to finally see EV taking shape in vehicles people can buy. The tech is also there to emulate any audible sound a petrol car makes, my point being that EV could eventually sound and drive the same way. To me a car is a visceral experience combining all of the senses in unison. To lose any one of these lessens the enjoyment for an enthusiast. This doesn't apply to Mr A to B in general who sees a car as a tool to do a job. As soon as EV begins to emulate the characteristics or improve on the sensual experience of the driver they will have cracked it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimboy2 Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 What are you all talking about? Something something, save the whales Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-germancars/bmw-heads-black-to-the-future/32483 Cant really see BMW ploughing money in hydrogen if its a non starter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 They're not: Read the text, that's a dead project They're putting their money into the fuel cell thing with Toyota. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 They're not: Read the text, that's a dead project They're putting their money into the fuel cell thing with Toyota. one of the company's fuel cell research vehicles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted July 3, 2015 Share Posted July 3, 2015 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 Tesla just announced their Q2 sales figures....53% increase compared to last year, and about on track to hit 55,000 cars delivered this year. http://ir.teslamotors.com/releasedetail.cfm?releaseid=920434 Jaguar sold only 88,000 cars in 2014. I suspect with Tesla about to start deliveries of their SUV, which currently has 20,000+ of preorders, next year (2016), Tesla will be selling more cars than Jaguar. The Tesla Battery factory build is also ahead of schedule, and will start producing battery packs by June/July 2016. If Tesla can meet their target of delivering 500,000 cars by 2020, the likes of BMW/Audi/Merc will be looking over their shoulder very nervously - Which is why the VW group is determined to bring out a 'Tesla killer' machine before 2017. I don't know about you guys, but for me 2020 is not that far into the future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 (edited) http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-germancars/bmw-heads-black-to-the-future/32483 Cant really see BMW ploughing money in hydrogen if its a non starter BMW are hedging their bets and been very clever with their production road map. They pushing pure battery and fuel cell tech at the same time, but mainly focusing on better/cheaper carbon finer chassis production, which will benefit any future car regardless of power source. http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/spy-shots/bmw/bmw-i5i7-scoop-target-tesla-model-s/ Do your own research into hydrogen as a fuel source and your quickly see just how difficult it is to implement in real life. Hydrogen for fuel cell cars needed to be compressed to 10,000 PSI before it can be used. 10,000 PSI is ALOT of pressure, hence the hydrogen 'tanks' need to be made from kevlar. Don't forget hydrogen fuel cells also need platinum as a catalyst, so by nature is costly to mass produce. Toyota is reported to be making a LOSS on every Miria hydrogen fuel cell car it produces. Despite the Miria costing £53k AFTER a £15K government grant. Tesla on the other hand has a >25% profit margin on every car sold. Hyundai has sold barely 300 fuel cell cars in its first year of production....Why would you buy one, if you think charging battery EVs is a pain see if you can find out where your nearest public hydrogen fuel station is.....If your waiting for hydrogen fuel cell cars to replace ICE machines, than I agree, you will be waiting for a life-time. It's becoming very obvious to a lot people Toyota has backed the wrong technology. But having spent so much on researching hydrogen they cannot just back down - Especially not when Nissan down the road is been so bullish about battery EVs. But as I've said countless times before, it's going be a exciting few years to see how things develop. Edited July 4, 2015 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 (edited) Jaguar sold only 88,000 cars in 2014 Well, nearly close, Jaguar sold 462,678, so no, they wont be selling more cars than Jaguar Edited July 4, 2015 by Jetpilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 Jaguar sold only 88,000 cars in 2014 Well, nearly close, Jaguar sold 462,678. Jaguar + Land Rover sold 462,678 cars, Jaguar sold only 81,000. So yes I was wrong http://www.jaguarlandrover.com/gl/en/investor-relations/news/2015/01/12/jaguar-land-rover-december-1415-sales/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Apologies, unit sales compared to company sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Tesla just announced their Q2 sales figures....53% increase compared to last year, and about on track to hit 55,000 cars delivered this year. http://ir.teslamotor...eleaseid=920434 Jaguar sold only 88,000 cars in 2014. I suspect with Tesla about to start deliveries of their SUV, which currently has 20,000+ of preorders, next year (2016), Tesla will be selling more cars than Jaguar. The Tesla Battery factory build is also ahead of schedule, and will start producing battery packs by June/July 2016. If Tesla can meet their target of delivering 500,000 cars by 2020, the likes of BMW/Audi/Merc will be looking over their shoulder very nervously - Which is why the VW group is determined to bring out a 'Tesla killer' machine before 2017. I don't know about you guys, but for me 2020 is not that far into the future On the flip side of that PR announcement... "Tesla posted quarterly revenue of $939.9 millions, a gain or nearly 52% over the same period last year. However, Tesla also reported a loss of $154 million in the quarter, or $1.22 per share, which is more than three times the $49.8 million loss the company posted in last year's first quarter." "Over the first two quarters of the year, Tesla hasn't delivered even half of the 55,000 vehicles it promised for the year." Source 1 Source 2 Now, that's not saying that Tesla are not also making positives, but I think it's important to note that they're not the flourishing beacon of success that they appear on the surface. What with the catastrophic failure of the Space X launch too, Musk is going to be a very busy boy in the coming months. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted July 4, 2015 Author Share Posted July 4, 2015 (edited) Tesla just announced their Q2 sales figures....53% increase compared to last year, and about on track to hit 55,000 cars delivered this year. http://ir.teslamotor...eleaseid=920434 Jaguar sold only 88,000 cars in 2014. I suspect with Tesla about to start deliveries of their SUV, which currently has 20,000+ of preorders, next year (2016), Tesla will be selling more cars than Jaguar. The Tesla Battery factory build is also ahead of schedule, and will start producing battery packs by June/July 2016. If Tesla can meet their target of delivering 500,000 cars by 2020, the likes of BMW/Audi/Merc will be looking over their shoulder very nervously - Which is why the VW group is determined to bring out a 'Tesla killer' machine before 2017. I don't know about you guys, but for me 2020 is not that far into the future On the flip side of that PR announcement... "Tesla posted quarterly revenue of $939.9 millions, a gain or nearly 52% over the same period last year. However, Tesla also reported a loss of $154 million in the quarter, or $1.22 per share, which is more than three times the $49.8 million loss the company posted in last year's first quarter." "Over the first two quarters of the year, Tesla hasn't delivered even half of the 55,000 vehicles it promised for the year." Source 1 Source 2 Now, that's not saying that Tesla are not also making positives, but I think it's important to note that they're not the flourishing beacon of success that they appear on the surface. What with the catastrophic failure of the Space X launch too, Musk is going to be a very busy boy in the coming months. If Tesla stopped now, they couldn't easily sustain themselves as a niche player like Porsche, Jaguar. BUT Musks ultimate goal is produce an EV for the mass market. Tesla is taking a massive gamble with building the worlds largest battery factory at a cool cost of $5 billion - which is $1 billion more than what Toyota is trying to raise through stock options to continue and develop the Miria. When fully complete its going to have a production output BIGGER than every other battery factory put together in the whole world!! No one has tried anything like this before, the investment needed in the battery factory is far bigger than the costs involved with developing cars. IF Tesla can pull this off, selling batteries will be their main business... If I was a investor I wouldn't touch Tesla with a barge pole, there are so many 'risks' in the battery factory, and even Musk has said they don't known how the production process will run....BUT the shell of the 'test' factory is already nearly done, and production due to start in Q3 2016. These are some hard deadline to hit for even large established companies, so it'll be interesting to see if Tesla can pull it off... As for Space X. Currently there are only 3 launch platforms to resupply the international space station. The Soyuz Russian system, the European Ariane system and the Flacon system by Space X. Given both the Soyuz and Ariane systems are backed by national government with decades of investment, Space X isn't doing badly....Rockets explode sometimes, it's what happens when your using a volatile fuel like hydrogen Edited July 4, 2015 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 As its pretty obvious I dont know much about Tesla, do I presume they are currently out sourcing the battery packs and so by producing their own they can cut costs and deliver a cheaper product? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 Don't forget hydrogen fuel cells also need platinum as a catalyst, so by nature is costly to mass produce. Unlike batteries, which don't use any precious metals at all in their production... It never ceases to amaze me just how blinkered you come across on this topic, it's quite mesmerising at times. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spursmaddave Posted July 4, 2015 Share Posted July 4, 2015 That's exactly my thoughts on ev's, there going to be the go to car and about 80 percent of cars being bought 20 years will be made from carbon/plastic and will be fully electric. Look how tesla have reduced the charge times from something stupid like 8-9hours to 20-30 mins for 200-300 miles in the last five years. Ev's will save ICE cars for pleasure the same way that cars have saved horses for recreation imo Just as race-horses are kept for well 'racing', no EV will produce the noise/drama of a V12, but does anyone actually want to be deafened by a V12 whilst sitting in traffic on your daily commute...Some might, but the vast majority wouldn't. Imagine is the government stopped taxing petrol instead focused on electricity...All of a sudden you can run a V12 for cheap, as a weekend toy, whilst going to work on a EV. But there in lies the discussion, you are discussing replacing your performance car with ev, so on that basis, why not have your leaf and a ice for weekend fun inc drama, noise, driving etc instead of a tesla? I would imagine 99% of people on any enthusiast performance car forum would rather xkr than tesla. I would have an XKR over pretty much anything Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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