London Attacks

[colesl4w]

I think a lot of what we are calling for already happens. Terror attacks are constantly being foiled, every day, but it doesn't make the news. Its the 1% they miss that get on the news.

[Jay84]

Excellent response time I agree. Late night too when people tend to not be at there best. I hear they've all had leave cancelled though which must put them under a lot of strain. Fully agree we need to work close with the Muslim community to prevent our own nutters surfacing. Will be interesting to see how it all affects the GE

[Willsy1980]

Will be interesting to see how it all affects the GE

 

Honestly, with the farce May has been producing recently. I fear JC is a shoe in for the seat now...

[coldel]

Yes that 8 minutes was quite frankly amazing, imagine what damage would have been done if the response time was 15 minutes.

 

At the moment the police arrest one person a day linked with terrorism but how many are actually locked up per year, you can count on one hand as you cannot lock someone up for years because they went to the middle east. Can you imagine you go on holiday to Dubai and the second you are off the plane slung into prison with your family for 5 years because you wrote something deemed anti-Islamic on a car forum and support a particular ideology? Would that seem a reasonable and appropriate response?

 

I think anything massively heavy handed will simply turn the Islamic community against the government, it will be seen as a huge racial profiling exercise and anti-Islamic, exactly the message IS want portrayed.

[Ekona]

Ironically racial profiling is exactly what's required, it's just not politically palatable. Vicious circle, the more IS attack us then the more the public become suspicious of Muslims and then the more turn to IS to attack us.

[coldel]

The best way to weed out the potential terrorists is to allow the communities that house them to push them to the authorities, racial profiling will not do that and is more likely to create more anti-west feeling and association with the IS way of thinking?

[coldel]

Actually racial profiling is probably the wrong term, I think our targeting has to be more precise than blanket arrests of groups of people based on a couple of variables. The anti-west feeling generated by that sort of behaviour in the long term will generate more terrorists and more deaths than those saved, just a speculative view.

[Willsy1980]

The best way to weed out the potential terrorists is to allow the communities that house them to push them to the authorities, racial profiling will not do that and is more likely to create more anti-west feeling and association with the IS way of thinking?

 

The problem with that is, many of the smaller segments of the communities have their own Mosque's or prayer halls where the like minded congregate. So they are unlikely to push out if they have the same views. They are not necessarily known to the wider/integrated Muslim community who live in peace with their western neighbors. Probably 98% of the Muslim community are decent hardworking folks just like us, finding 2% is a very difficult task when they hide in plain sight.

[Tricky-Ricky]

Its our own fault for letting this country become a nice cushy safe haven for all and sundry, it needs re titling from "Great Britain" to "Pathetic Britain" because that's what its become,and how most of the world see us! rant over!

Edited June 5, 2017 by Tricky-Ricky

[Jetpilot]

you cannot lock someone up for years because they went to the middle east.

 

Ok, so how about anyone KNOWN to the security services, as per the Manchester bomber be given a simple choice, if you go to the middle east, you have your passport revoked?

[Ekona]

So how would that work for volunteer aid workers?

[Jetpilot]

I doubt volunteer or aid workers are known to security services for potential terror attacks

[Ekona]

Okay, so what about someone who has only shown up on a watch list BECAUSE they've taken multiple trips to the Middle East?

[Jetpilot]

I am pretty sure the authorities know, as is regularly the case after a terror attack exactly who these suspects are, so i am quite positive the people who take regular trips to the middle east are appropriately vetted and cleared of being a potential threat.

[Jay84]

There's no '1 thing' that can be done to identify these people, but lots of things to build up a picture. How much info do they need to take action? We'll never know.

If we're not careful we're going to go over EXACTLY the same ground we've already covered in TT's 'lucky' thread.

[Ekona]

Agreed.

 

JP though, for one very final time, why do you feel so uncomfortable defining what would make someone a risk in your opinion? You've evaded the question every time it's been asked, and yet clearly you have very strong views on the subject. It's very odd how you're annoyed that the government get nothing done, but happy to simply state every time that a government organisation clearly knows best.

[coldel]

Isn't there something like 4000 people known to police, of which 5 this year have done something. So the solution is to arrest the other 3995 people because they are on a watch list? There are plenty of people out there that are known to police who are likely to rob people, mug people, assault people and so on and so forth probably tens of thousands of them, I assume we apply the same logic there also? There are plenty of people on this forum who I would say based on previous posts are very likely to be out on the roads doing 100mph and speeding regularly, I presume the police should revoke their licences immediately and ban them from owning a car under the same principle.

 

The problem here is that the logic is back to front, of course someone committing these vile acts is very likely to be 'known' to the police its unlikely your auntie Doris is going to wander into central London with a rucksack loaded with gunpowder. So given that tens of thousands of people in the UK are known to the police, what is the legal measure that is taken to solve the problem?

[docwra]

Yep, until we get the thought police you cant nick someone for something they might do. Watch list is not the be all and end all by any means - you might be on it because you had a drink with an extremist and didnt even know it, getting deported on that basis is a bit strong ........

[Jetpilot]

Agreed.

 

JP though, for one very final time, why do you feel so uncomfortable defining what would make someone a risk in your opinion? You've evaded the question every time it's been asked, and yet clearly you have very strong views on the subject. It's very odd how you're annoyed that the government get nothing done, but happy to simply state every time that a government organisation clearly knows best.

 

When did i say the government get nothing done, i said they need a firmer hand and more powers to prevent these incidents and as per Jays comment, an individual case would be needed to build a picture of the threat, which they do, so why not allow them to be able to act. I havent evaded the question, there is no single answer except to say, i am pretty sure they know exactly who are threats and to which level in most incidents and that wont be because you have just shared a random drink with an extremist and no one is talking deportation, its a simple choice, if "they" believe they are a terror threat, why wouldnt you want to protect your country?

Edited June 5, 2017 by Jetpilot

[Jay84]

It helps me sleep at night, that although these horrible thing have happened, maybe for for each attack that's happened, 10 or more have been prevented. Not sure if its true but its an optimists out look. Would celebrating success of thwarted attempts in the media act as a deterrent to others? or strengthen their resolve?

[coldel]

They are doing this now, they arrest on average one person a day, 5 other attacks have been prevented already this year. Mentioned by many sources we have the toughest laws in the world for preventative terror arrest capability, however something massively draconian has to be in play to stop someone deciding to hire a van, pick up a knife from his kitchen and head off out the door...

[Jay84]

Yeah, thought police, or clairvoyance. Oh and I never speed lol

[Richf]

you cannot lock someone up for years because they went to the middle east.

 

Ok, so how about anyone KNOWN to the security services, as per the Manchester bomber be given a simple choice, if you go to the middle east, you have your passport revoked?

 

There are some countries that you shouldn't be able to go, no aid workers, no wanna be ISIS fighter , no-one .

[Tricky-Ricky]

I am sure the police. secret service etc could do far more....but for the PC namby panmby constraints that we have allowed various governments to put on them, yet we are the ones standing around throwing blame and what if's.

[Richf]

I am sure the police. secret service etc could do far more....but for the PC namby panmby constraints that we have allowed various governments to put on them, yet we are the ones standing around throwing blame and what if's.

 

ECHR stops most of what we could do