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Brexit 23rd June..?


coldel
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168 members have voted

  1. 1. How are you likely to vote in the upcoming EU referendum

    • Stay
      62
    • Leave
      82
    • Unsure
      18
    • Not going to vote
      6


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I work in a place where more than 60-70% staff have Phds and are immigrants. Some are really worried about staying in UK, they felt threatened and unwelcomed. I've been told by my friends and family to stay low until this is over and not drive my Zed because I'm not white and the car attracts too much attention.

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I've been told by my friends and family to stay low until this is over and not drive my Zed because I'm not white and the car attracts too much attention.

 

That's a bit drastic. I'm not white either, but you can bet your b*llocks to a barndance that Brexit won't be stopping me from driving my zed! :D

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Yes that seems drastic. I know a few immigrants who are specialists in medicine and engineering who receive EU funding for their development work at UK universities, having to in all likelihood stop the research and leave UK now and continue it in a different country.

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I've seen this several times before and everytime i see it i find it incredibly narrow visioned and full of errors, i couldn't help my self and have added comments in blue :blush:

 

A different view on "lost, just get on with it, stop moaning":

 

"There is something I need to say. it will be a long post. Some of my friends might be offended, that is not my intention. But I need to say this. Please read it, even if you don't read my other EU posts.

 

Since the referendum result, it has been a much repeated statement that those of us still talking about the referendum should just shut up. Some people are polite and blindly optimistic, saying 'let's focus on what unites us, let's work together'. Other people are offensive, calling Remain voters bad losers, or worse. I need to tell you why I cannot - will not - be silenced on this. Why working together seems so difficult today.

 

A common thread seems to be 'we're all allowed an opinion, let us have our opinion and stop arguing about it, accept that some people don't agree with you and those people won.' Yes, you are allowed an opinion. You can form an opinion about whatever in the world you want to and I fully respect your right to that. You can have an opinion that the sky is purple with yellow spots if you want. However, if I asked you to bet your livelihood and future, and that of all the people around you, on whether your opinion of the sky is right, I would at least expect you to look up to check your facts are right.

 

If you're going to argue with someone it helps to understand the facts before telling someone they're wrong Technically the sky isn't blue it has no colour and is only a perception of colour refraction and changes depending on the light in the sky sky is blue because molecules in the air scatter blue light from the sun more than they scatter red light. When we look towards the sun at sunset, we see red and orange colours because the blue light has been scattered out and away from the line of sight.

 

 

When you found the sky was, in fact, blue, I would expect you to respond accordingly. Sometimes there is a right answer and a wrong answer. Sometimes we cannot agree to disagree, however nice the sentiment is. Too many people have voiced the sentiment - 'I have a right to an opinion even though I don't really understand the EU or politics, so just leave me alone and stop challenging me.' You had a right to that opinion. But before you cast a vote, you had the responsibility to back that opinion up with fact. To at least start to understand what you were voting on. There was an awful lot of information out there during the debate. If you voted without really understanding the facts then I have every right to challenge you and I won't stop just because it makes you uncomfortable. This is far, far too important. All those people Googling what the EU means on the 24th June, or telling us all how they didn't really understand, just had a 'feeling' which way to vote should all be ashamed.

 

I would like to know how you can attribute all the googling to just leave voters? could it be possible a lot of remain voters who didn't know what they were voting on might have been googling it to find out what they're about to leave. Shouldn't more remain voters have done their research before voting to stay? just because you think your position is right doesn't mean others in your own group didn't do their research either

 

I will also address the idea that we don't like having 'lost'. I could not care less, this isn't a tennis match and I never saw it as 'winning or losing'. I saw it as fighting for the future, for hope, for diversity and tolerance. I saw it as making a decision that wasn't inward-looking and selfish, as being part of the modern world.

 

And people on the leave camp didn't have the same train of thought?

 

75% of the younger people of this country also had this vision for the future. I don't feel that I have lost a game. I feel that our whole country has been betrayed, destroyed (in the sense that the UK will disintegrate) and lost any respect in the eyes of the world. We have all lost the benefits of EU citizenship, even those of us who wanted to keep it. We have voted to be left on our little rock, all alone.

 

At no point is this a vote of isolation, people still want to trade and work with Europe and it would no different to travelling or visiting any other country, you have a passport you get a stamp. they haven't blocked up the tunnel and cancelled all leaving flights. its an opportunity to grow our economy with emerging big economies and an ability to react quicker as an independent than as a large conglomerate.

 

All the values of 'Britishness' I identified with have been undermined. I do not feel any common ground with the vocal parts of the Leave campaign. Not because they 'won' and we 'lost' but because I simply do not have that mindset and I find most of what they have said to be offensive. The whole world has 'lost' after this referendum.

 

And nothing on the remain vote was at all offensive or belittling?

 

I do not want to tar all Leave voters with the same brush. I respect that there were individual people who made decisions based on thoughtful points of view. In my next words, I'm not saying all Leave voters are the same. Nor are all Remain voters automatically good people. However. I campaigned on the streets, I read article after article, I engaged in endless social media conversations.

 

But you'll tar everyone with it any way; people on the leave side did just the same thing, but she thinks everyone on the leave camp are council housed arse scratching dribbly simpletons, and everyone in the remain camp was highly intellectual and born with an IQ no lower than 160 and were all endorsed by catholic saints.

 

I know the tone of this debate. And the Leave side employed anti-immigrant and racist rhetoric.

 

And the remain camp dabbled heavily in fear and threats

 

 

Many Leave voters voted because they wanted to restrict freedom of movement. I know because they told me, often aggressively. And, today, I've heard from migrant and British ethnic minority friends that they feel threatened and unwelcome in this country. They are worried to leave the house. They have seen that half of the country are willing to ally themselves with a racist and anti-immigrant campaign, even if they do not feel that way themselves. That is not a situation in which we can just keep quiet and find a way to work together. I don't think all leave voters are racists but I fear that the racists now feel legitimacy, that they think half the country agrees with them. I have already heard this expressed on social media.

 

Because social media is the most accurate reflection of current society? yes there are some disgusting people who happen to vote the same way, doesn't mean i or others agree with them and they make up a minority of the vote. many just worry about immigration but don't go out and beat up foreigners.

 

'The majority have spoken, that's democracy', I've been told. But is it? Have they? The Scots don't think so, for a start. Do we have a country in which an angry majority can trample over the rights and wishes of a minority? That's a little scary. This referendum campaign was full of lies (yes, on both sides, but more of them on the Leave side, as the media is finally acknowledging) and many, many people voted with no knowledge of what they were voting on.

 

You've only just noticed this about politics; I could sit here for an hour or more listing all the empty promises that different elected governments have failed to follow through on. there are a vast majority who vote in general elections not because they understand the politics, but good old dad voted that way and this towns always been labour/tory. we've been voting in governments for years where less than 50% of the public vote and of that 50% only 30% make up the winning vote. when you include all those who didn't vote you have a government voted in by only 36% of the electorate. well that seems like perfect representation to me ...Not

 

 

For so many, if it wasn't about immigration, it was a protest vote against the Conservatives or against politics and politicians in general. The majority haven't actually spoken about the EU, they've expressed anger on all kinds of issues.

 

And this is backed up by what evidence/figures or is it just speculation and hearsay?

 

None of this seems like a good basis for a decision that will throw us into recession and isolation,

 

Recent data had shown we were already facing a possible recession even if we had stayed in the EU

 

http://uk.businessinsider.com/britains-economy-is-slipping-towards-a-recession-2016-5

 

 

that will strip our young people of the right to live, work and study abroad, will affect every aspect of our lives. It was an irresponsible referendum because it had no regulations relating to what level of turnout or majority would give it legitimacy.

 

But it isn't legally binding the referendum was and is nothing more than an opinion poll how politicians choose to interpret that is another thing, and as of yet no one has actually initiated article 50 so we are still in the EU and will be for sometime.

 

I have resisted signing the petition for a new referendum so far because I want to be seen to be respecting the democratic decision. But I am beginning to see it as far from democratic or representative. And with so many of the Leave voters now saying they would change their vote if they could, what would the result of a referendum today actually be?

 

You've seen more than 1.9 million people who want to change their vote, have you checked to see if any on the remain side might have done the same, but thought it doesnt' matter as they got the vote they wanted anyway?

 

Maybe we should find out before we think about triggering Article 50 and actually leaving the EU. Can we really let this decision stand after such a shabby campaign and with a small majority result? This is why I am proud of the Lib Dem stance to challenge the referendum and fight to stay in the EU at the next General Election.

 

a small majority? 1.3 million is larger than 126 different countries populations it would be like the whole of Estonia voting to leave

 

There is an awful lot more I could say. But I will end with this. I am shocked, frightened and horrified by this. By the divisions in the country and by the outcome of the referendum. I feel alienated from a country I have always been proud of, in a liberal non-nationalistic sense. I have friends who feel even worse because they're migrants or minorities. Virtually the entire population of the world thinks we've lost our minds. We've become an inspiration for the French far right, for the Texas Tea Party movement and congratulated by Donald Trump. American and European friends are writing to me to express sympathy and disbelief that we could do this. I need to talk about this personally because I am mourning and talking helps. Don't you dare tell me to shut up if your vote is part of the reason I feel this way today. Block me if you don't care, but don't silence me.

 

If you are not talking about this, you do not understand how important this is. You have underestimated the impact. Not just on the economy or trade or freedom of movement. But on society, ideology, the heart and soul of this nation. On the whole world. If you are not still talking about this, you are irresponsible, in my eyes. This conversation is one of the most important in the nation's history. It will define who we are for generations to come.

 

But hey, you have your opinion don't you? And it sound lovely to say we should all just get along. Sounds like you're rising above it all. This will affect you too. And then you might be glad that some of us are talking about what it means.

 

I am the 48% #WeAreThe48"

 

Rebecca S Buck

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I cant believe this thread is still going strong but as it is just a couple of points to consider

 

1/ If Europe/ the EU is so great then why do people want to come to Britain, why cant they go to another country in the EU and have such a great time.

 

2/ Do you think that the main party`s would be concerned that if a second referendum was held and the result overturned then there could be a massive swing towards support for UKIP

 

Just interested in views on either point.

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I cant believe this thread is still going strong but as it is just a couple of points to consider

 

1/ If Europe/ the EU is so great then why do people want to come to Britain, why cant they go to another country in the EU and have such a great time. - Because English is the most common second language

 

2/ Do you think that the main party`s would be concerned that if a second referendum was held and the result overturned then there could be a massive swing towards support for UKIP - If the result is overturned there will be rioting on the streets , some people will feel that its the end of democracy

 

Just interested in views on either point.

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I cant believe this thread is still going strong but as it is just a couple of points to consider

 

1/ If Europe/ the EU is so great then why do people want to come to Britain, why cant they go to another country in the EU and have such a great time.

 

2/ Do you think that the main party`s would be concerned that if a second referendum was held and the result overturned then there could be a massive swing towards support for UKIP

 

Just interested in views on either point.

I cant believe this thread is still going strong but as it is just a couple of points to consider

 

1/ If Europe/ the EU is so great then why do people want to come to Britain, why cant they go to another country in the EU and have such a great time.

 

2/ Do you think that the main party`s would be concerned that if a second referendum was held and the result overturned then there could be a massive swing towards support for UKIP

 

Just interested in views on either point.

 

On point 1

 

-Jobs

-Benefits

-NHS

 

Not always but i reckon a large proportion, we moved to the UK from Germany when PSA was privatized and my dad had to apply for a new job. Ended up in sunny south London.

 

With that said, I quite like the idea of living in switzerland, basic living but a good living but they do not take immigrants except for a tiny handful and you can only buy houses in certain areas.

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No one said the EU was great, and its not about coming or going to England, this has been mentioned time and again by Remain supporters. This was an economic vote that people pushed into a political and in some cases a racial vote.

 

For me its about incurring economic chaos to achieve almost nothing by the end of it - I put two questions to people on here time and again and no one engaged with them:

 

1. What 5 or 6 EU based regulations have so vexed you and impacted you personally that you feel so angry towards the EU? Dont use google.

2. If we adopt the Norway model where we abide by EU regulations and adopt free movement of labour as part of the EEA would you feel like you have 'taken back control'?

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No one said the EU was great, and its not about coming or going to England, this has been mentioned time and again by Remain supporters. This was an economic vote that people pushed into a political and in some cases a racial vote.

 

For me its about incurring economic chaos to achieve almost nothing by the end of it - I put two questions to people on here time and again and no one engaged with them:

 

1. What 5 or 6 EU based regulations have so vexed you and impacted you personally that you feel so angry towards the EU? Dont use google.

2. If we adopt the Norway model where we abide by EU regulations and adopt free movement of labour as part of the EEA would you feel like you have 'taken back control'?

 

Those 2 questions are formidable my friend. Wonderful stuff

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Now, I know I have been vocal on this thread as I am deeply passionate about economics - that doesn't make me an expert in any way shape or form, just someone who probably spent more time reading up on the realistic benefits vs the realistic risks and should I vote leave. I didn't vote leave because it was obvious we couldn't restrict immigration, £350m was an out and out lie and free trade with no payment is unrealistic otherwise everyone would be doing it. Why didn't the government call out these obvious facts prior to the vote?

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Whether it's better to be in than out is clearly a point for continuing debate but you have to wonder what the result would have been if there hadn't been sooooo many lies told.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rendum-36641390

 

It's ridiculous that politicians can tell so many lies during a campaign and get away with it. I hope they've at least rendered themselves unelectable, but sadly I feel that they'll just carry on, BAU. The £350m figure wasn't a 'mistake' as the article puts it either - it was a lie.

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The one issue I had was the amount of racism i experienced when i moved to the UK from germany, systematically named a Nazi as was my bro and sister (1991) even though we were born in glasgow, lived in a UK military base (germany) and spoke barely any German! Seeing reports in the newspaper of the things being said to the Poles really tugged a string for me, made me angry to say the least and it was all because that 2 bob monkey Farage

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Why didn't the government call out these obvious facts prior to the vote?

 

Because they are all in it up two their necks mate. None of them can tell a straight truth because they dont know the meaning of the word

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I have to add, this whole affair has left a seriously bad taste for me regarding politics. I'd accepted long ago that politicians stretched the truth a lot, and I even defended them because I thought that people often forget that they're only human when criticising and judging them.

 

To have the true nature of politics exposed so plainly though has really left me wondering if I'll ever bother to vote for anything again.

 

EDIT: correcting made up phrases :D

Edited by BobbyZ
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Whether it's better to be in than out is clearly a point for continuing debate but you have to wonder what the result would have been if there hadn't been sooooo many lies told.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rendum-36641390

 

It's ridiculous that politicians can tell so many lies during a campaign and get away with it. I hope they've at least rendered themselves unelectable, but sadly I feel that they'll just carry on, BAU. The £350m figure wasn't a 'mistake' as the article puts it either - it was a lie.

 

Democracy.

 

The people that vote for farage should be shamed (not directly) but by association. Something like this:

 

 

 

 

or do you think it's a bit much

Edited by nievelc
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Why didn't the government call out these obvious facts prior to the vote?

 

My guess, Brinkmanship.

 

They wanted the vote close to 50/50 so they could use it as a means to reform the EU further, but they completely misjudged the mood & ended up not doing enough to prevent it.

 

On paper, Cameron got everything he asked the EU for prior to brexit and that still wasn't enough for the hardcore in his party or the ghouls who vote BNP / UKIP. He literally painted himself into a corner & he did it needlesly.

 

In fairness, if Gordon Brown had given the public a vote on the Lisbon Treaty (when it was the Lisbon Treaty and not ammended to the EU constitutuoin after Ireland rejected it) this might have happened sooner rather than later or conversly, it might shelved the issue until the next reform bill 10 years later. We'll never know.

 

I for one think there's many unseen & unheard benefits to the EU that we really don't know how badly we took it for granted until its staring us in the face. I appreaciate not everyone will agree so save the effort of chiming in to say so.

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So if you voted remain you are considered "right" and of you voted leave you are automatically considered racist, or at the very least to have based your decision on immigration alone.

 

I have had to unfollow a remain voter on Facebook because what started as a decent debate discussing the opinions of a leave and remain voter, turned into a remain voter basically telling me I've ruined my country, taken it back to the dark ages and stolen my children's future. The same old insults and mid slinging.

 

It seems some simply cannot possibly accept that others may hold a different view. In their world, a leave voter is either racist or thick.

 

When a decent debate breaks out, I'm happy to contribute. When it's remain voters trying to convince others that they are simply wrong, and cannot even entertain their views, then I'm not bothered.

 

One interesting point from a conversation last night was a EU immigrant saying to me along the lines of "well thank God I still got my European passport and I can leave if I don't like it"

 

The hilarious thing is, if I had said that first, I would have been a racist leave voter.

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1. What 5 or 6 EU based regulations have so vexed you and impacted you personally that you feel so angry towards the EU? Dont use google.

2. If we adopt the Norway model where we abide by EU regulations and adopt free movement of labour as part of the EEA would you feel like you have 'taken back control'?

 

Off the top of my head, it's not specific to legislation but,

 

Fishing quotas, all but killed many towns in the UK just because the Spanish and Dutch were running out of their own fish. Dress it up as sustainability and nobody argues.

 

Farming subsidies and quotas, two fold pushes up food prices and kills farming income. Even to this day there are tons of vegetables ploughed back into UK fields because they are not allowed to sell any more into supermarkets.

 

Climate change legislation (which they knew from the outset were set at unachievable levels) has massively inreased fuel bills in the UK. It's blamed on the energy companies, but the levies and taxes add alost 30% to bills in some cases.

 

The EU civil servants awarding themselves massive perks and breaks over and above that of any EU citizen.

 

Examples:

 

In the UK we are having to review the pensions of teachers and nurses etc. EU civil servants meanwhile get up to 70% on a final salary scheme, regardless of the fact they are unsustainable.

 

They don't publish accounts. Even a small business in the UK has to lodge accounts with companies house, never mind councils and local authorities. The EU meanwhile disclose nothing about their expenditure and staff pay. Even though they are publicly funded.

 

In the UK we have stripped child benefit of £1040 per year for people earning over £50k. In the EU however you get a £7k per year allowance per child.

 

In the UK we tax at a basic rate of 20%. Tax rates for EU civil servants start at 8%. They do not publish earnings and bands. It is only thanks to leaked documents that we know 10,000 people employed in the EU offices take home more than our prime minister thanks to these tax breaks.

 

The list of reasons goes on. And you'll note not a single one revolved around immigration.

 

I expect anyone who has a say in legislation in our country to be both accountable and have transparent public accounts.

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Whether it's better to be in than out is clearly a point for continuing debate but you have to wonder what the result would have been if there hadn't been sooooo many lies told.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rendum-36641390

 

It's ridiculous that politicians can tell so many lies during a campaign and get away with it. I hope they've at least rendered themselves unelectable, but sadly I feel that they'll just carry on, BAU. The £350m figure wasn't a 'mistake' as the article puts it either - it was a lie.

 

Democracy.

 

The people that vote for farage should be shamed (not directly) but by association. Something like this:

**Mod edit: Picture removed**

 

 

or do you think it's a bit much

 

I think it's bit much and extremely offensive.... Surprised the forum admin have allowed you to post It to be honest

 

Edit: thanks mods

Edited by WINKJ
Removed offensive image
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