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Jetpilot

Brexit again

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So a dangerous and emotive subject, but with an alleged deal on the table, whats peoples thoughts?

 

Could or should TM (or any other politician) have got a better deal

Should we have another referendum

Should parliament back her

Should she resign

Should we have another election

 

And a last question, what do folk think about the unrest in Italy and Poland about whether they want to have a referendum?

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I appreciate this won't be a popular view but I honestly believe this was a really bad issue to have a referendum on in the first place. 

 

I reckon most people, including me, don't have sufficient understanding of the comlexities of issues such as the economic pros and cons to make a properly informed decision, or the time to get properly infromed.  So it just comes down to whose sound bite has the most impact and who can be most effective at playing to people's basic fears and prejudices.

 

Cynical I know but that's how I see it.

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Person opinion for me, is no we shouldn't have another referendum as the people voted to leave. I think that what ever has happened since is just fueling the remain camp to demand another, but that's just like we weren't happy with the outcome lets keep doing it until we are happy. but that's just my opinion as i say. I also think that the eu is falling apart slowly. possibly doomed to fail potentially.

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I’m no fan of May but I don’t think another politician would have delivered anything better than she has. We already had the best deal, so the idea of it improving has been demonstrated as the fallacy it always was.

 

It’s hilarious that all the big hitters who sold this to the public that have since disappeared off the scene in a huff, desperate to pretend the shambles wasn’t their own doing.

 

If a subsequent vote isn’t democratic then, obviously, neither is the first one. How one informed by the actual content of the deal, can be presented as undemocratic is laughable. The only reason not to do it again is the fear of the vote changing. Which is obviously flawed thinking if you’re even slightly interested in evidence based decision making.

 

They either need to sack it off completely or do a hard one. Otherwise we’re just making what we’ve currently got less good, for absolutely no benefit.

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I`m not into the politics/implications/ramifications of it at all but my opinion would be - no way should we have another vote on stay or leave. Those that bothered to vote voted to leave. Just because the "stay" voters didn`t get the result that they wanted shouldn`t mean that we have to do it all over again repeatedly until they do get their way.

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Ive run a European business for the last 15 years and posts like the above scare the daylights out of me TBH. 

What you hear will happen if we have a hard Brexit isnt "Project Fear", its the reality; we still end up with all of the same problems as the "deal" TM is trying to sell has but we also create huge trade and financial issues. 
The fact that a misinformed/ill informed vote happened 2 years ago shouldn't mean we are held to destroying the countries economy - there is so much more information and detail readily available now that youve no excuse for making an informed decision. 

 

Other than "we voted for it" Ive still not heard a single benefit of leaving the EU, despite (or maybe in spite of) new information. 
It isnt a dead cert we would be allowed to trade under WTO rules, and when its taken his long to get to a relatively incomplete deal with one trade bloc how long do you think it would take to make individual trade agreements with countries around the world?
Mentioning Churchill, making our own laws*, control over immigration** or the financial benefit*** is not a valid answer. 

Im all for democracy but the substance of whats on offer needs to be considered even more carefully than the original "leave" intention, particularly when its come to light that a lot of what we were told was inaccurate. 
The choices that we nw have are a half arsed "deal" where we continue to pay and fall in line but dont get any input into decisions, a "no deal" Brexit that leaves us not only out on our own globally but starting from scratch again (see recent stories about Turkish economy to see why thats bad) or maintaining a status quo, albeit one that its clear a lot of people arent happy with. 

* Tell me a bad or unfair law that EU have forced on us, Ive got all day
** Its been proven that EU immigration is a net benefit and besides, we already have various powers of veto over it we dont choose to use. 
*** No-one believes that £350m a week thing any more do they? Everyone accepts there will have to be some kind of divorce "bill", dont they?

 

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Well put Docwra - could not agree more!

My business operates in the science sector which is already struggling and we have not left the EU yet.

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20 minutes ago, Ponsonby said:

Well put Docwra - could not agree more!

My business operates in the science sector which is already struggling and we have not left the EU yet.

“We’ve had enough of experts”. :headhurt:

 

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Working in the auto service industry, I'm unsure how this will go for us. On brakes alone, most of the parts are manufactured on the continent; Pagid Germany, Brembo Italy etc. I'm torn on the re-vote idea, on one hand more info has come out / been show to be wrong i.e. voters misled. But I agree with the notion we can't keep voting util we stay. Maybe in hindsight a 2/3's majority rule should have been implemented like when we decide who governs us, with it being so evenly split, emotions were always going to be close to the surface. 

As for the the TM questions, I think she'll be history's fall guy (gal?), and won't be in power one way or another long after the signing of the deal.

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TBH it was a skewed vote anyway as Cameron and Co were looking for their "winning" majority to be as slim as possible to give them more leverage with Brussels, the £350m was a lie from the start but no-one thought to mention it. 

Ive also got to take issue with all of the folk saying Theresa May is a liar and should resign and all of that crap; in reality she has got the best compromise deal we could have hoped for and despite being a remainer has done a very decent job of negotiating with 27 other countries. Again, Ive been asking the noisy people what they would have done differently and what their outcome would be and weirdly Ive had nothing back from them. 

This isnt some minor decision that can be sorted out on a bit of A4, this is trying to extract ourselves from our own justice, trade, economic and civil legislation with 27 other countries that dont want us to do it. Everything from the vote, to the timescale to the muppets like Farage and Mogg spouting bullshit every second day has been unrealistic and frankly a bit of a shambles. 
 

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Curious if anyone mind has changed either way since the original referendum, and why? 

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This will of the people bit is strange. It mattered 2 years ago, but not anymore. I was convinced either matters or doesn't. 
If it doesn't the UK parliament should just disregard the vote, as due to the principle of parliamentary sovereignty it cannot be constitutionally binding on either the Government or Parliament. Also the only reason we have a parliament is so they can spend ALL their time figuring out what's best for the country, and not just ask the nation who knows nothing about the legal, financial and trade complexity. 

As it turns out nothing what was promised will be achieved or delivered, I'm wondering why no one is saying the decision to stop Brexit would be in the national interest, as it's clear it would be.
Now, if the will of the people does matter, and the people were scammed and lied to, they should be able to linch  the liars and change their mind, therefore a new remain or leave referendum should take place.

But saying the will of the people only matters at a single point in time 2 years ago is asanine in my honest opinion.

Another thing which people don't talk about, and really should, is that our government is responsible for managing the country, meaning budgets, infrastructure, social care, health care, and so on. Migration has been on the increase for a decade, majority of migrants (not ilegal immigration) are employed, meaning they're all paying taxes, so why aren't we holding the government responsible for utterly failing at spending the money on all services which are impacted by the increased numbers? How is it ok that we're blaming migration and not the people in charge? Why did we vote to leave and punish the next two generations with economic downfall, instead of voting these tools out?

 

I'm confused as hell, none of this makes any sense. I'm hoping a strong brexiteer will be able to explain the benefits of what we're doing 
 

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3 hours ago, Adrian@TORQEN said:

Pie says it better than I could:

 

Unfortunately Adrian you dont ever seem to able be say anything for yourself, just post links to things you think are clever etc If you dont have anything to say yourself, like the last Brexit thread, i would suggest saying nothing at all, i was hoping for some sensible comments/thoughts on the topics raised.

1 hour ago, StevoD said:

Curious if anyone mind has changed either way since the original referendum, and why? 

No and funnily enough this whole episode is exactly why i wanted to part ways from the EU, i think it just goes to show how much power the EU has over us when we cant even get close to what "we" want. However futile my vote has been, i still wouldnt change my decision.

 

Doc speaks well as ever, i have no problem with the single market and the benefits that brings, the problem is the politics that go with it imho, I actually dont believe either the EU or the government thought it would ever happen, perhaps if either did, there would have been a much better deal sorted when Cameron sat down to negotiate our "terms" of membership, its pretty clear they have TM and the UK over a barrel and know it.

 

The EU fishing quotas are an absolute farce Doc, throwing dead fish back into the sea because youve met your quota??? 

 

 

Edited by Jetpilot

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2 minutes ago, Jetpilot said:

Unfortunately Adrian you dont ever seem to be say anything for yourself, just post inflammatory links to things you think are clever etc If you dont have anything to say yourself, like the last Brexit thread, i would suggest saying nothing at all, i was hoping for some sensible comments/thoughts on the topics raised.

So you'd like traders stating their personal political views? Hilarious. I'm surprised he even comments at all. 

 

3 minutes ago, Jetpilot said:

No and funnily enough this whole episode is exactly why i wanted to part ways from the EU, i think it just goes to show how much power the EU has over us when we cant even get close to what "we" want. However futile my vote has been, i still wouldnt change my decision

What are you talking about? The UK was a part of a union where it got loads of benefits, for which it had to pay just like every other member based net contribution rules which are there for all. 

Then a group of politicians with 0 expertise and knowledge about anything started convincing people that the UK is better off alone, which is fine... freedom of speech and all. But when it turned out we'll not be better off alone, everyone started losing their @*!#, blaming the EU about everything. 

It's simple, we want to stay in, fine. We want to go out, do a hard brexit. But seriously, what did you expect, that the EU will go over and beyond just to help the UK exit a union which was formed in order to prevent Europe going down the right wing nationalistic route and start any new wars? 

Also when 2 people get divorced...did you ever hear one offering everything the other one wants when it's actually in their detriment? 

I mean don't get me wrong, I'd have loved the EU giving us everything we wanted, but I actually live in the real world where unicorns and rainbows dont solve all our problems. 

What "we" want means nothing, when we're the ones leaving, even though they wanted us to stay. Also the amount of whining the UK does is hilarious. The UK had the best negotiated terms of all EU members and we still left crying and are blaming Europe for everything. 

 

I know you probably won't read this, but you really should and potentially reconsider your opinion on why the EU is important for the UK. 

https://www.ft.com/content/202a60c0-cfd8-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377

 

Or not and keep talking about fishing quotas while the UK declines for a decade or two while consuming US chlorinated chickens, fracking and Australian steroid beef, while we secretly privatise (or open) the NHS for the US companies

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I really cant be bothered for this thread to descend into the previous Brexit thread where we all argue and condemn each other for the way we cast our votes.

 

I voted leave, i personally really dont care if you like it or think its valid or justified :thumbs:

 

However i am interested in peoples thoughts as per the first post, if it can be kept on topic great, if not please feel free to lock it down mods.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Jetpilot said:

I really cant be bothered for this thread to descend into the previous Brexit thread where we all argue and condemn each other for the way we cast our votes.

 

I voted leave, i personally really dont care if you like it or think its valid or justified :thumbs:

 

However i am interested in peoples thoughts as per the first post, if it can be kept on topic great, if not please feel free to lock it down mods.

 

 

No one is arguing or condemning anyone. It's called talking and stating positions.

Although funnily you were the first one who started bashing on a person, or in this case a trader, the one person who doesn't want that. Funny right?

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38 minutes ago, Jetpilot said:

The EU fishing quotas are an absolute farce Doc, throwing dead fish back into the sea because youve met your quota??? 

That and the farming quotas are the only real benefit I can see to the UK if we do bang out, but I think they are relatively minor when compared with the rest of the picture - I dont remember Boris standing on top of a red bus saying how great it would be for fishermen either. I do remember Farage on the Thames, but Farage. 

They EU have played a blinder here really, while they have given some concessions to us they clearly arent enough to justify leaving ........ and if the UK cant leave the EU what chance do Italy and Spain have?
I actually think we could probably handle a staged withdrawal over 10 years or so but the problem would be the same as right now - continuing to pay into the EU and be governed by the EC is not what the leave voters thought they were voting for. 

Stick the Irish border and Gibraltar on top of that (changes to which I believe would be an infringement of human rights) and you wonder why no-one realised that this wasnt ever going to be possible a long time ago. 

 

 
 

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...I have resisted for so long to start up this thread :lol:

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Let’s keep it friendly chaps, there’s Twitter for slagging off remainers/leavers [delete as appropriate].

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8 minutes ago, SuperStu said:

Let’s keep it friendly chaps, there’s Twitter for slagging off remainers/leavers [delete as appropriate].

In case this was about me, my apologies, certainly didn't mean to slag of anyone. 

 

37 minutes ago, Jetpilot said:

I voted leave, i personally really dont care if you like it or think its valid or justified

Why justified or valid? I've only seen fishing quotas as a reason, and negotiations which have not started when the vote happened. So if you don't mind, apart from the fishing quotas, what else was a problem with the UKs membership? Genuinely interested

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1 hour ago, docwra said:

and if the UK cant leave the EU what chance do Italy and Spain have?

Dont forget Poland in there too......

 

Thats the interesting point now, hindsight is a wonderful thing and i would assume after seeing our attempts if any other member states go to the vote they pretty much know, if they want "out out", thats its, no deals, so will be a pretty clear vote for whatever country.

Edited by Jetpilot

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1 minute ago, Jetpilot said:

Dont forget Poland in there too......

 

Thats the interesting point now, hindsight is a wonderful thing and i would assume after seeing our attempts if any other member states go to the vote they pretty much know, if they want "out out", thats its, no deals, so will be a pretty clear vote for whatever country.

This here will probably be the only benefit and the only good thing Brexit actually achieved. It's a shame it's a benefit for the EU and not us 

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1 hour ago, Maggz said:

In case this was about me, my apologies, certainly didn't mean to slag of anyone. 

 

Why justified or valid? I've only seen fishing quotas as a reason, and negotiations which have not started when the vote happened. So if you don't mind, apart from the fishing quotas, what else was a problem with the UKs membership? Genuinely interested

It was just a general message as feelings run deep on this.

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