twobears Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 (edited) In my Spanish lesson this afternoon we are going to be discussing youth unemployment in Spain. I've been given a couple of newspaper articles to read which say that being female, under 24 and with what they call 'a basic education', means that one's chances of employment are slim and that, even with a job, wages would not be enough to live on. The situation is not much better for young men. Seems like a very sad state of affairs to me I am assuming that it must be similar in this country but am not sure to what extent? I feel that there may be the beginning of a backlash against higher education here, or certainly amongst some members of the middle class whose children are effectively being priced out of higher education, and private education too for that matter? My own daughter turned down her place at a redbrick uni in favour of attending a land-based college because she wanted to obtain more practical skills alongside her academic ones, for instance. I realise that a degree is still necessary to enter the professions or any specialised job but I have no recent experience to inform my opinion on whether or not a degree is a prerequisite for employment here or not? Personally, I think that going to uni has become a knee jerk reaction these days and is often unhelpful or downright damaging to young people's lives due to the amount of debt it leaves them with just as they should be starting eagerly on the employment ladder. Does anyone have a view? Edited November 22, 2014 by twobears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjy88 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 This is a very touchy subject with me, as I spent a lot of money to go University, even if it was loaned by the government. It is a particularly difficult decision, university, as you're quite right, it has become a knee-jerk reaction to go to University. In fact the large majority of young people tend to apply on the basis that they're going to have 'the time of their lives.' In truth, unless your chosen school is in the elite, university has become a complete farce. It is taught by lecturers who are seemingly on a huge power trip, and very often do not have the qualifications to teach at a middle-school, and therefore go to act as a 'lecturer' at a university. During my three years of university, I would say I learned very little indeed, and spent a large sum of money for what essentially was a piece of paper. University is hugely political, and the only thing it really taught me is that if you want to achieve anything in life, you have to spend a lot of time sucking up to people above you... something I am almost incapable of doing, I might add. I am currently in employment within a large privately owned company, and the degree is not being used at all. In fact, if you really want to know some statistics, 2 people out of 45 (across 4 sectors of Journalism) in my year at Uni have gone on to a role within Journalism. The rest are in utterly different careers. However, there is a slight contradiction arising in my life, which may make me very happy with the fact that I got a degree, as I've been put forward for a move into a high position with a dept. at Jaguar UK. Something that has never happened in this company before, but it turns out that they would not have considered me if it wasn't for my degree - so I simply cannot feel completely dissatisfied with my choice of 3 years and a lot of money spent. That's my random opinion anyway. What I've just written may make no sense at all, its' quite early and I'm a bit fuzzy from lack of coffee at this point in the morning. P.S. I also met my wife at uni - thus proving it to be a terrible idea... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scobie140 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I'm glad I never went to uni, chose an apprenticeship instead. Was more due to hating the whole sitting in a classroom thing and preferring to work but now I see plenty of people I know who went to uni and have all singing all dancing degrees etc and the work in basic run of the mill jobs on low or average income, don't get me wrong a few have done well but it seems that uni and a degree didn't help much. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ioneabee Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 my son has just gone to York - he was always destined to go to Uni, its all he's ever wanted to do - I might add he IS a complete bookworm. but a couple of my neighbours kids have also gone off to Cardiff, for no other reason than they don't know what else to do so the answer to this is - its horses for courses - it will suit some (my son), its being used for the wrong purposes by others ie nothing else to do or just to go and "party" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I'd like to have gone, but just for the parties. Jo went, and she had to to become a teacher, but otherwise I don't really see them as necessary these days. A lot of people go just because they feel that's what you do, which is the wrong attitude, or just because they don't really know what to do after school anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scobie140 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Experience counts for more to most companies than qualifications I think, that's why it's so difficult for young adults to get a job as no one is willing to give them the experience. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 Thanks everyone benjy88, your reply is really informative. I think, on balance, you probably have benefitted from gaining a degree (not to mention a wife ) and good luck with your future career scobie140, I completely agree that apprenticeships are the way forward for a lot of people and we should be providing more if we want to get our economy back on track. ioneabee, I have to disagree slightly because in terms of being a bookworm, my daughter would give your son a run for his money I'm certain She has always been a very academic child, gained very good A levels and had a place to read English at a redbrick university. However, she eschewed this in favour of gaining qualifications that are both practical and academic. She's currently knocking spots off all the other students, mature ones included, and has got top marks in every single assignment she's completed to date. Yes, I would have liked to think of her studying English and, as a Larkin fan, I was thrilled she'd been accepted by Hull but, at the end of the day, it's her life and career and I think she has made the right decision for her. Not having an English degree doesn't diminish her in my eyes and, with luck, she will be far more employable in a couple of years time Just because someone is intelligent doesn't mean they HAVE to follow the uni route. I did myself but I am fine with her choosing her own way through life How I am going to adequately express my thoughts in Spanish is my next question 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chirag1988 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I went to Brunel University and came out with a degree in Financial Maths. What did I do with it? Nothing! Coming from an Indian background, education is somewhat of a status symbol in our culture. I guess it comes from when my parents came to the UK with nothing and worked their way up to where they are now and they didn't want me to go through the same and by default a good education should give you the assurance of a good job later on. This used to be the case many years ago, but as we all know, these days it's not necessarily true. I'm born and brought up here and have seen changes in my life that my parents simply can't comprehend because they grew up in a different time period and geographical location to me. My train of thought at school was to get my GCSEs, get my A-Levels, get a degree and then get a good job. My choice of degree was down to the fact that I enjoyed Maths at school, did really well in it and I wanted to take it further. However during the 4 years at uni, I took a job at Carphone Warehouse in their sales team to work part time to see me through my expenses, and in my 3rd year I took a placement year where I transferred to the Accounts team at Carphone Warehouse to see what life would be like as an accountant. I thought of going down the CIMA or ACCA route which are both reputable fields qualifications. Now I mean no disrespect to any accountants on here, but I found the placement year extremely boring! This is probably due to the fact that I was so immersed into the sales environment and it was such an extreme change of surroundings that I really didn't like it at all. They even offered me a job to return to after I finished uni, but I declined it as I couldn't see myself spending the next few years of my life in the same "dull" environment. Again no offence to any accountants on here After uni I went into recruitment for 2 years - found that the market was hugely saturated and the glory stories of people taking home thousands of pounds every month were down to those who had been in the field for around 10 years and had already built up a strong client base during a time when there was a lot less competition. So I turned my sights to a more practical skill and qualified as a plumber (not gas...yet!) and a domestic electrician. I started taking on odd jobs here and there but needed something a bit more secure to keep the money coming in regularly so I looked at going back into the sales field and went into estate agency. I've now been at the same company for almost 2 years and for the first time I can actually say hand on heart that I'm happy at my job. It may not pay as much as other jobs I could be doing, but I really enjoy the work, I enjoy working with the people in my office and it allows me to have a good work-life balance. And I still take on the odd trade job now and again to keep my skills refreshed. So to sum up, none of the jobs I've done since uni have required me to have a degree. Although I don't regret going to uni one bit. It taught me a lot of transferable life skills which I probably otherwise wouldn't have learned. It also improved my abilities to work under pressure and to deadlines (especially when you have a dissertation hanging over your head!). But with the way things are with uni at the moment, I understand it's a lot different from when I went, and that was only between 2006 - 2010! Fees are rising like mad and the standard of education is not in line with the rise in fees from what I hear. Hope this makes sense and anyone reading it finds it remotely helpful 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 chirag1998, that's a really interesting and informative reply, thank you You sound very employable and I bet you would do well in any career because you have a great attitude as well as both academic and practical ability You also neatly prove my theory that being academic doesn't mean you necessarily have to follow and academic route to its logical conclusion. At the risk of getting battered with someone's briefcase, I too can't imagine anything more boring than being an accountant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ioneabee Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Annie - I don't think we're disagreeing at all - its just that, thats what he's always wanted to do - he's only just started and is talking of continueing on to do a masters might I just add York is No 8 in the list of top uni's (for English).....Hull is erm.....No 38 York is a Russell Group Uni............Hull, erm.......isn't :lol: ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 Ok Andy. You win, your son is cleverer than my daughter, if you say so p.s. but my Dad is bigger than yours Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ioneabee Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Ok Andy. You win, your son is cleverer than my daughter, if you say so p.s. but my Dad is bigger than yours considering I'm bigger than my dad - thats not going to be difficult 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 Ok Andy. You win, your son is cleverer than my daughter, if you say so p.s. but my Dad is bigger than yours considering I'm bigger than my dad - thats not going to be difficult Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudman Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 (edited) Not at all. Son went to Oxford and it may get you on the list but he's also commented that experience seems to be more valuable. It also depends heavily on what vocation the degree is in as in some cases it just a stamp in the book of life you partied for 3 years. I opted not to go to Uni and joined up in a post Falklands War moment of patriotic calling and did full career. I did go to Uni when demobbed but again it was the experience future employers craved not the qualification. My daughter did actually work at Uni as she was on NHS bursary for midwifery so when not in classroom was out on the wards - gaining experience. I have conducted many interviews with graduates and to be honest I don't really give a monkeys about qualifications, whats important to me is can the do the job and will they fit in. Edited November 21, 2014 by Mudman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delz0r Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 In Ireland if you don't have 3rd level education then you're fighting a serious uphill battle. On the flip side you have a lot of people doing useless 3rd level courses here and can't get a job either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ioneabee Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 (edited) agree with mudman - but did the fact that they had a degree get them the interview in the 1st place my view is that if it gets you to first base - then thats what counts (mostly) Edited November 21, 2014 by ioneabee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidS14 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 The biggest change I see is that years ago to have a degree was seen as something special, few people went to university so you were seen as something a bit special when you had. These days it seems that everyone has a degree in something or other and the employment market seems saturated with graduates. I went and was glad I chose a more practical subject (Mech Engineering) but if I had my time over I would probably look at getting into an apprenticeship in something I enjoyed or wanted as a career. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 Rob, my husband feels exactly the same as you and says he never takes any notice of degree qualifications on CVs. The worth of modern day degrees has been diluted to the point of risibility. I wonder if you can study for a degree in using internet car forums these days?!!! I imagine that an Oxford degree would get you a foot in the door of many firms though. My daughter was chosen to attend the Oxbridge admission sessions but she refused to do that as well and I have to confess I was a bit disappointed in her choice that time. Still, you can't live their lives for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Two particularly valuable things stood out to me about my time studying for a degree: 1) it involved a mandatory 1 year placement, so I learned invaluable real workplace things that you don't get from studying (timekeeping, behaving in a professional environment, thinking on my feet, how to engage colleagues at different levels in an organisation, etc). 2) that there's loads more I learned at uni that's nothing to do with studying, such as how to live away from home and run a household/pay bills on time/etc. Also coming from a fairly limited diversity, white, working class part of the country, I got to meet people from different ethnic and socio-economic backgrounds - which broadened my horizons immeasurably. My best and closest mates are still the ones I met at uni in 1999. All in, I think Univerity is a great opportunity for anyone, whether you chose to do something academic or vocational. If it was free (as it should be in a developed and civilised country) I think you miss out on something if you don't go. However, I totally recognise that some don't want it, even if it didn't cost a penny, and go on and do really well - so it's far from a must have, more a good to have if you want to do it. Then there's the more recent element of "I'd go if it didn't cost £30k", which is totally wrong, education should be free. Living in the real world, no one should be barred from education because they're not rich, but there is a tough choice to make. I'd rather pay a few quid more tax and no poorer kid misses out on uni due to not having the means, than save the tax money, but it's not everyone's point of view. Would I encrourge my fictional children to go? Absolutely. Would I go mental if they chose a vocation instead? No, by the time you get to that age you've got to make your own choices. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 Funny how we all seem broadly to agree that degrees are not the be all and end all for everyone, for some, yes, they are essential, but not across the board. Politics has a lot to answer for. If that is the situation in Ireland delz0r, it seems pretty rubbish 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinmac Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 Whwn I was at school I knew what I wanted to do. On completion of my O levels the headmaster ripped me to pieces for not passing them all. I replied that I needed 6 and thats what I passed. I then went to sea at 16. I did my vocational training at College after this. I can not really see the point of the modern idea of going to Uni for the hell of it. Yes its a good laugh I guess but I would rather be earning money than racking up a debt just for the hell of it. My son went to equestrian college but had a car crash before he qualified. He is now very successful and earns more than me. As for the gap year thing dont get me started on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 I always wanted to go to uni, when I was 10 I made a point of getting through all my maths SMP early so I could get onto secondary school work which they sent over from the nearest school. I took pure maths, applied statistics and business studies a levels, did a stats and economics degree. It was what I planned for for years, other people around the time I was going to uni never put a minutes thought into it and just went for it in the absence of anything else to do - this was back in the day of no fees. Over time people saw this as a good chance for a jolly and the quality of entrant in my view decreased as uni's got money from the government to fill places. The public were shouting from every roof top that students should pay for their university education (funny how fickle the public are eh...look at them now) as it was viewed as a jolly. If you hate degree fees, you only have the generation before you to blame... Anyway, thats the history lesson over are degrees worth it? Of course they are, it is absurd to believe otherwise. There are many careers where a degree is a requirement to start out on, you won't even make it to interview without that on your CV. There might be instances where people start out on careers without it but those are more in the minority. Nowadays degrees are not special that make people stand out, they are a hygiene factor in selection for interviews i.e. you have to have one to be considered and its all the other stuff on your CV that sets you apart. I am sure there are people who disagree, who run their own businesses and would choose on personality, but there is a difference there - that they are risking their own money and are entitled to go on gut feel - but for most jobs which are with larger organisations recruiters are faced with hundreds of applicants per job, if the job in question is one that requires a specific skill set that is degree based then the only way to filter is on degree. Clearly if someone is recruiting for an entry level job working as a car mechanic, then me applying with my degree vs someone with no degree but 2 years working in garage is going to make my application pretty much worthless. If you want a particular career, look into what the interview requirements are at entry level and find out what they want. If they want a degree then you should go for it. Just as an aside, its picking the right degree at the right uni that is important, not just going for the 'best' uni on the list. There are quite a lot of misconceptions that Oxford and Cambridge are the places to go if you want the best but it varies wildly by qualification. Coventry no one would bat an eye at, but if you want to get into engineering its one of the best uni's in Europe - they built the land speed record Thrust cars there etc. and house a Mercedes sponsored wind tunnel, they have a fully working Harrier Jump Jet in one of the labs and so on and so forth. Any recruiter worth their salt will know what uni's do good degrees for the role they are recruiting to and not just look at uni names. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 SuperStu, I agree with every single thing you say except the point that universities should provide vocational training. I think that universities should exist solely to educate the brightest and the best in academic subjects. Controversial? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hensh65 Posted November 21, 2014 Share Posted November 21, 2014 If you're going to uni, you need to pick a subject that is a job title. Architect, dentist, accounts etc. I done a vague course "product design engineer" waste of time and called it quits after my 2nd year. My misses is a newly qualified Pharmacist, 4 years and 1 years placement for her Masters and still makes less than me without a degree. Experience is much more important IMO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted November 21, 2014 Author Share Posted November 21, 2014 Interesting post Coldel and you make many points that I can't possibly disagree with but I have to take exception to this one "If you hate degree fees, you only have the generation before you to blame..." , because I promise you I have never, and would never, vote(d) for any political party whose policies included charging for education. What they say and what they do, however ... I also see what you are saying about a degree being an essential stepping stone for gaining an interview and I will be reflecting this in my lesson this afternoon but I don't agree with the principle at all. The professions NEED a degree to secure entry and that's a fact but many other jobs really should not. My husband isn't a one man band by the way. He works for a global automotive data provider that everyone on here will have heard of so he's not just risking his own money, ha ha. I wish he did own the company mind you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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