BobbyZ Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 I have to say, I am happy for Corbyn - as I said before, fair play for sticking to his guns. Love him or hate him, he's a man of principle, and I think there's something to be said for that. Man of principle? Couldn't be further from the truth. Hates the EU but campaigned Remain, hates nuclear weapons but suddenly now supports them, spent years arguing against his own leaders until became one and now just picks the popular things to promise to the world. He's as bad as any two-faced politician (and there's a few of them). He's smarmy as hell, but it plays better to the cameras than TM's aloofness. I think we have a different definition of 'man of principle'. If he'd turned into the next Tony Blair overnight then I'd agree with you, but he hasn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 To be fair if you read what actually happened on the nuclear issue he said he still stands by his views but the party went against those views so he withdrew his view and allowed the party view to come through in the manifesto. So no, he doesn't now support nuclear weapons. I agree he promised the world somewhat without thought for how he would actually do it - but it was smart, he knew he was never going to win but he could see the longer game of getting support on promises he wouldnt have to fulfil, more seats in the house, sets them up against what is now a coalition government - he's in a strong position to win the next election. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyZ Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Yes, I don't think making the odd concession means that my statement about him was wrong. Looks like Ken Livingstone agrees with me http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-2017-40171454?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=593a9fcfe4b0831b67030589%26Livingstone%3A%20%27New%20Labour%20is%20dead%20and%20buried%27%26&ns_fee=0#post_593a9fcfe4b0831b67030589 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 If you fancy a rather satirical view of the result you tube Jonathan Pie Can't post it here for profanity reasons but it is hilarious but also quite true 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Thinking further about this, I reckon that TM is a very good Prime Minister but a very poor Conservative Party leader. Clearly a capable woman, and I fully trust her to deliver a decent Brexit deal, but she has no idea of drumming up support and putting the right faces out at the right times. I used to think she was the capable one, but this election, including the u turn on it, the one on national insurance and the one on the dementia tax don't really inspire me. She appointed not one, but two clowns to big jobs. Boris is the laughing stock of the world, only eclipsed by Trump and David Davies is a joke too. She couldn't even recognise that her own campaign had the wheels falling off for the last 4 weeks. To top it off, she brags that she's the big hitter we need in the Brexit negotiations, yet she couldn't even manage a debate with Jezza! The longer she goes on the more incapable she appears. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 9, 2017 Author Share Posted June 9, 2017 Boris is second behind Rees-Mogg as the cleverest, most knowledgable and down to earth politician I know of. I really rate the guy, and it's because of his foppish attitude that I believe he could really galvanise people. I agree with the rest though, but that's exactly what I mean about being a good PM but a poor leader. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 You'd think by now she'd have cottoned on that it's not just about Brexit I agree its done her no favours, but sorry, it kinda is all about Brexit in the first instance, if "we" dont get that right, the whole country will be f****d so makes no difference who was in power and done what during the next couple of years! We've already not got it right by triggering it But seriously, what is a good Brexit? Economically, retaining free access to the market is a must for it to be "good" but that goes hand in hand with freedom of movement, so that's out the window because it's the whole reason people voted to leave. What does it leave after that to negotiate, arguing percentage points on the tariffs we're going to have to pay? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Some of the quotes coming from the DUP around 'we are in a strong negotiating position' are worrying given they clash with the Tories on quite a lot of stuff: 1. border control in brexit 2. triple lock pensions 3. certain benefits Be interesting to see how much negotiating it takes to get these two together and what impact it has on the brexit plan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 9, 2017 Author Share Posted June 9, 2017 Triple lock I can live with for a couple of years, got any details on the others at all? Just a link will do bud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aashenfox Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 What do you guys think would be better right now, a strong leader with a blase attitude to administration, ala Churchill, or an Administrator with little charisma. I don't really know, both will have their strengths and weaknesses. I guess the unwashed mass needs to be galvanised more than a smooth brexit, so I'm going to go with strong leadership, but sadly, I can't see any of those on the horizon. Would it be so hard for the Tories to hire some PR people? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 9, 2017 Author Share Posted June 9, 2017 A strong and stable leader has no need for PR people! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 I downloaded the manifesto on my work laptop but now at home without it and now cannot get back on their site - hence the rather vague list above http://www.mydup.com/publications What isn't lost on me is the rather ironic series of events that just a couple of weeks ago had the Tories mudslinging at Corbyn for having associated himself with rather unsavory people in Northern Ireland and now they are relying on Unionists to keep them in government 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aashenfox Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) A strong and stable leader has no need for PR people! The irony is that's what the case should be, it's only cos we're sheeple, that it doesn't suffice. Edited June 9, 2017 by Aashenfox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 I downloaded the manifesto on my work laptop but now at home without it and now cannot get back on their site - hence the rather vague list above http://www.mydup.com/publications What isn't lost on me is the rather ironic series of events that just a couple of weeks ago had the Tories mudslinging at Corbyn for having associated himself with rather unsavory people in Northern Ireland and now they are relying on Unionists to keep them in government It's absolutely priceless, obviously "pro IRA" Corbyn is totally different to "actually in bed with the UDA" DUP. The coalition of chaos is off to a blinder! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeezeebaba Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 I have to say, I am happy for Corbyn - as I said before, fair play for sticking to his guns. Love him or hate him, he's a man of principle, and I think there's something to be said for that. Man of principle? Couldn't be further from the truth. Hates the EU but campaigned Remain, hates nuclear weapons but suddenly now supports them, spent years arguing against his own leaders until became one and now just picks the popular things to promise to the world. He's as bad as any two-faced politician (and there's a few of them). He's smarmy as hell, but it plays better to the cameras than TM's aloofness. The above traits apply to every MP that's ever lived One is no better than the other and the phrases "U turn" and "Back track" are regularly used by political commentators. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Completely agree zeezee. The problem is you can't please everyone, and in this age of information, we seem to get more and more divided. Too much info is accessible for politicians to say something and us to blindly believe it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 I honestly think May will be gone within a year - with brexit about to start I can see why it would make sense not to resign and leave us completely in lurch but surely after all thats come before she is not credible any more. Soon as talks underway I wonder if at the right point she is quickly and efficiently replaced... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 I agree she won't last, but I also think any politician taking us through brexit has a raw deal. Its going to be decisions that are scrutinised for decades to come, and any politician will be hard pressed to not be ridiculed by future historians. Personally, I think Labour should be thrilled they lost, because next election they can be heralded as the saviours from the Tory Brexit screw up. The only thing I feel this election has done has legitimised TM as PM. When Blair stepped down and Brown stepped up, everyone was up in arms about the newly unelected PM. Obviously he was also an uncharismatic baffoon, which didn't help. In that respect TM did better than Brown did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 TM is also unelected, if you read the letter from the EU congratulating TM is specifically uses the word 'reappointed' - TM is still an unelected PM hence the coalition agreement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Hm interesting point, didn't look at it like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargara Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) This is priceless. People voted Labour thinking the Torys were bad haven't seen anything yet if the DUP get their way, they make the Tories appear Lefty by comparison Voting Tory would have actually been the lesser of the 2 outcomes in reality. Edited June 9, 2017 by Sargara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 I think many people realised that voting the Tories in would be the sensible thing to do but many people just couldn't face doing that I presume as their version of brexit is just too extreme and they had to make some sort of stand against it. I do think the DUP will soften brexit (and you could argue a few Tory backbenchers will now put pressure on May to do the same) but as you say the DUP also have some lets say very extreme views on things... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 I think many people realised that voting the Tories in would be the sensible thing to do but many people just couldn't face doing that I presume as their version of brexit is just too extreme and they had to make some sort of stand against it. I do think the DUP will soften brexit (and you could argue a few Tory backbenchers will now put pressure on May to do the same) but as you say the DUP also have some lets say very extreme views on things... As Stu has showed us...thats seriously scary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 We assume the Tories are ready to go on EU discussions, but unless someone can pop the evidence on the table and show us I will leave it as just that, an assumption. I think many people realised that voting the Tories in would be the sensible thing to do but many people just couldn't face doing that I presume as their version of brexit is just too extreme Which one is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 9, 2017 Share Posted June 9, 2017 Simple. TM has indicated a hard brexit with no concessions but has no plan of any detail to back it up yet in terms of what an alternative looks like. One line. done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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