marzman Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 (edited) Hi guys, I'm after some input/advice from anyone who may have been in a similar position to me in their careers (or from anyone else who wants to chime in!) I'm 30 years old and have worked for the same software company for 8 years since graduating from University. For the first 4 years i was a programmer, with the last 4 years as a Business Consultant / Project Manager. I'm very proud of the job I do currently - it's always exciting and is pretty high profile, as I work with lots of different sports clubs/institutions across the UK. This year I was in charge of a very large software project at Silverstone for example, and i've just finished another medium sized project with Nottingham Forest FC. Sadly, i feel like i have out grown my role over the last 6 months and things are starting to feel repetitive. We had a company update this week and I left it feeling very demoralized. There doesnt appear to be anything different on the horizon, and i cant stomach another year of the same challenges day in, day out. So, I've begun looking for a new job elsewhere, but i would like to take a step up to a 'proper' management role. Something like an Operations Manager or Practice Manager. Does anyone have any tips on how to do this, whilst not having any real management experience (as in, no permanent direct reports previously). Secondly, how far should/could you reach with regards to salary? I'm currently earning around £47.5k, however I dont feel like i want to risk my career for anything less than £55k, but actually I would like to try my hand at jobs offering even more than this (£60k+). Does anyone here have experience of applying for and getting jobs in this space? If so, what are those jobs like in terms of responsibility/stress, and do you regret making the leap? I'm nervous about going to an interview and being out of my depth, having only worked for one company before. Lastly... if anyone here knows of any jobs available which sound similar to the above, give me a shout! (North West or Home based). Edited September 19, 2014 by marzman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marzman Posted September 19, 2014 Author Share Posted September 19, 2014 Also, how the hell do i give notice at my current job?? My colleagues are like my family and I dont want to be leaving anyone in a bad situation, or let my bosses down etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flex Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Bigger leap go self employed, earn double that. Don't worry about giving notice, everyone will support you for stepping up and moving on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponsonby Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 I think that you need to consider very carefully what you want and what type of person you are. Sounds like you have a pretty well paid job with little responsibility (management wise) but are just getting a little bored - but we all get bored. You have questioned the responsibility / stress of a higher paid position - does this suggest you are averse to these factors? Most £55K plus jobs will carry a lot of responsibility and highly likely to be stressful so unless you thrive on these things then be careful what position you take. You should never worry about giving notice. It is your life and your 'friends' will support your decision. Obviously if you do a proper handover then you will feel better about it and so will those you leave behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fodder Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 From a slightly different perspective but have you spoken to any senior managers at your current employers? You never know they may agree that you're ready to move on up and ease you into the next stage with familiar environment. That said its a risk as it could also work against you. Good luck either way 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarnie Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 More money = more responsibility = more stress Do you want that? As Flex says, is there the possibility to Consult for these sorts of companies on a self employed/ contractor basis?? Same job but more ££££??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricey Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 I was in a similar situation. My co-workers were almost literally like family. I'd worked with them since I was 18. New parent company took over who were total broncos and I decided I'd had enough of financial services. Handing notice in is so difficult......I decided on the slightly less conventional route of taking a picture of myself with a Hitler mustache and posting it on Facebook with the caption 'wonder what our German client will make of this on Monday'. Worked pretty well. Now I spend my days up to my arse in oil and microfibres.......life is a LOT more enjoyable! Never chase the dollar my friend (unless it's doing something you love). Otherwise you'll spend your life chasing your own tail. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Hi guys, I'm after some input/advice from anyone who may have been in a similar position to me in their careers (or from anyone else who wants to chime in!) I'm 30 years old and have worked for the same software company for 8 years since graduating from University. For the first 4 years i was a programmer, with the last 4 years as a Business Consultant / Project Manager. I'm very proud of the job I do currently - it's always exciting and is pretty high profile, as I work with lots of different sports clubs/institutions across the UK. This year I was in charge of a very large software project at Silverstone for example, and i've just finished another medium sized project with Nottingham Forest FC. Sadly, i feel like i have out grown my role over the last 6 months and things are starting to feel repetitive. We had a company update this week and I left it feeling very demoralized. There doesnt appear to be anything different on the horizon, and i cant stomach another year of the same challenges day in, day out. So, I've begun looking for a new job elsewhere, but i would like to take a step up to a 'proper' management role. Something like an Operations Manager or Practice Manager. Does anyone have any tips on how to do this, whilst not having any real management experience (as in, no permanent direct reports previously). Secondly, how far should/could you reach with regards to salary? I'm currently earning around £47.5k, however I dont feel like i want to risk my career for anything less than £55k, but actually I would like to try my hand at jobs offering even more than this (£60k+). Does anyone here have experience of applying for and getting jobs in this space? If so, what are those jobs like in terms of responsibility/stress, and do you regret making the leap? I'm nervous about going to an interview and being out of my depth, having only worked for one company before. Lastly... if anyone here knows of any jobs available which sound similar to the above, give me a shout! (North West or Home based). THIS! You have just described my exact circumstances and current thinking, the only difference is that I work in Networking instead of Programming. I've been a bit luckier though and there is a Management position open at the moment which I've applied for, my interview's on Monday, but it's by no means guaranteed that I'll get it. In the past I have secured promotions by simply asking for them, and by quitting. I walked in to my Director's office one day with two letters - one was a resignation letter and the other was the offer I was about to accept from another company. Fortunately he didn't call my bluff and I stayed, got a 10k pay rise, and a car... but it's a very high risk strategy and I do know people who have tried this and been less successful. I don't have any direct reports or proper management experience today either, but I figure I'm in with a fair shout of getting the role because of the other stuff I do (though I have no idea who my competition is). I'm forever helping my peers and my bosses evaluate complex commercial / technical / political situations and arriving at an informed, rational decision. I also pro-actively try to keep the rest of the business informed about relevant new developments in the Industry and I've been building bridges with some of our suppliers which has proven to help deliver some decent ITT wins for us. My argument on Monday will be that while I'm good at my day job, I do so much more for the business than just that, and if you give me a management role I can focus more on the wider team and my attitude / approach / skills will be able to benefit the 10-12 guys that would be in my team, instead of just me and the jobs I'm working on. There's also a lot of internal change happening in my business at the moment and I have a positive attitude to this, which I also hope will come off well on Monday. Aside from a lack of experience with direct-reports, the only other worry is that in my current role I have a pretty unique set of skills and I know they can't replace me easily (we've been trying to find another me, for months). I am worried that this will work against me. I guess, from my perspective, the thing to ensure is that you want the change because you think you'll enjoy the new role, that you'll be good at it, and that those under you will benefit from your leadership. If you just want the change because you're bored of your current job, then I suggest you need to think long and hard about the change you're going to make before you take the jump as there may be no going back if you're crap at the new job, or if you don't like it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benjy88 Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 I'd say go for it. There is too many people around the world who have a wait and see attitude. Whereas this is understandable, and everyone likes to be comfortable in their work, you must ask yourself whether you will regret sitting back and not trying, should you decide not to go for it. As for going self-employed, that's the complete opposite end of the scale in terms of pushing yourself. Unless you have something to fall back on, or your spouse earns well - it can go drastically wrong. We should all test ourselves every now and then, or we would fall into a very boring situation; doing the same thing for the rest of our lives. For example, I earn around £38k per annum at the moment, a wage which is very comfortable, me and my wife are plodding along quite nicely in terms of building a deposit for a house - a pretty good feat considering we're 25. But am I going to sit here doing the same thing everyday for the next 10 years? Absolutely not. I have been doing my current job for three years now, and have issued an ultimatum to my immediate manager, and our trainer (who reports back to the head of the division) to explain that if I am not promoted within the next 12 months, I will seek employment elsewhere. And I absolutely would. That sounds like a ballsy and almost childish thing to say, but I always plan my life in three year steps. I would advise you to do the same, Marzman, as quite honestly, I never feel bored! I hope this helps! (sort of) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy78 Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 More money doesn't always mean more stress. In the same organisation that may be true, but moving to a different sector may mean that things are less fast paced. I'm a PM myself working in healthcare IT and it can be pretty stressful at times. My girlfriend has just moved from being a Dev Manager in healthcare IT to one in the financial sector and is finding it really easy (Which she hates) despite having been given a huge pay rise when moving... She's now looking at getting her boss' job as quickly as possible. I'm in a very similar position to you as I have worked for my company for 11 years. Leaving would be hard, but there are so many good opportunities out there. Who know's if you do hand your notice in, your company may try to keep you by offering a better package or another role? In a small company there is sometimes not natural route for career progression, so leaving is unfortunately the only thing you can do in order to improve your career. Wish you all the best and with a big enough pay rise you might be able to tempt Matt to sell you the Zed back! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 I've no direct experience but Mr Two Bears is the CTO of a global automotive data company and, like you, he started as a programmer and worked his way up. Because he is so senior he now gets new roles by being head hunted but in the past I think he used to get promoted by doing exactly what you seem to be doing i.e. working over and above what your role demands. Have you approached your line manager and discussed your ambitions? Is there the possibility of further promotion within your current company, even if you have to wait until someone else is promoted or leaves or have you reached the top of the tree in your particular area? I'm guessing you must have regular appraisals with your line manager so why not raise the question of promotion? Maybe you should ask for a one to one meeting next week and prepare your pitch over the weekend? Tackled carefully I think it could net you a good result. Good luck 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabbitstew Posted September 19, 2014 Share Posted September 19, 2014 (edited) Wow. £47.5k @ 30 years old. Thats mental. I dont earn that and im a lot older than that and in a senior position at the company I work for. Career wise its always a tough choice to make when you have been working at a company and are established there. Do you stay where you are, doing same old things, getting decent cash and hope one day you`ll get promoted or have extra responsibility. Or do you take a risk and move elsewhere to somewhere which is the unknown. Ive had various jobs over the years and it can work both ways. Sometimes you end up working in a nightmare job and that new boss who appeared nice turns into a right git. Other times it works out really well. Its just something you dont know until you do it. Moving up the ladder can be hard. If you are doing a good job where you are now, why should your company promote you into a higher up role? If they did that they would then have to try and find someone to replace you in your current role and the chances are the new recruit might not be as good as you at it. Theres a saying "you fail upwards", and ive seen it loads of times at companies where the only people getting promoted are those who are crap at their jobs and those who are good get stuck doing the same old job. So the only option usually is to move to another company. Same with pay. In my experience ive very very seldom ever had a pay increase in any of my jobs, dispite exceeding all my objectives and working my fingers to the bone. In my current role, ive not had a pay increase in 6 years. Only time ive ever managed to get a rise was through changing companies and moving into a new job with a new salary, but even then you have to be a bit careful about things. I remember once being offered a job which had been advertised as paying 38k, but when they found out I was currently only on 25k they refused to offer me any more than 29k as they felt it would be too much of a jump in salary. If you have no management experience, how do you get a managers job. Well, a lot of companies are prepared to let you gain the experience in the role. They see it as an investment. If you already have 10 years management experience then whats to keep you stimulated and interested in the new role. What more is there for you to learn? However if you are starting off, then you have loads to learn and chances are will stay working for the company for longer. Salary wise, what you get depends upon area I guess. The programmers in my company are on about 35k a year, senior managers/directors are on about 50k and the top dog, numero uno CEO is pushing 80k. Thats in Cambridge where I thought salaries were good. Other areas are different. I know further out of Cambridge, in areas like where I live, average salaries are £25k a year. Edited September 19, 2014 by rabbitstew 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marzman Posted September 22, 2014 Author Share Posted September 22, 2014 (edited) Thanks for your responses everyone. It's all much appreciated and useful advice. I think that you need to consider very carefully what you want and what type of person you are. Sounds like you have a pretty well paid job with little responsibility (management wise) but are just getting a little bored - but we all get bored. You have questioned the responsibility / stress of a higher paid position - does this suggest you are averse to these factors? Not at all - I cant describe the stress levels that we are forced to put up with in our job. (although i guess everyone says that). Our projects are all pretty high profile and in the public eye if anything goes wrong, and a lot of it rests on my shoulders. My boss' job is easy in comparison! I would hope that leaving my current employers and getting a more senior job elsewhere might result in less stress due to an easier working environment! From a slightly different perspective but have you spoken to any senior managers at your current employers? Have you approached your line manager and discussed your ambitions? Is there the possibility of further promotion within your current company, even if you have to wait until someone else is promoted or leaves or have you reached the top of the tree in your particular area? So today ended up being a very big day! I took a call from my colleague who does the same job as me, and he told me he's handed his notice in! He's decided to go traveling for 12 months with his wife! My boss had scheduled a meeting for him and I in the afternoon, and it turned out it was to begin planning how to replace my colleague, and to be asked to become the Team Leader and to head up a couple of new initiatives. I then dropped the bombshell that i've also been considering my position and that i have applied for another job! The company definitely cant afford to lose both me and my colleague, which has put me in a strong position. So I outlined what I have been looking for in a new job i.e. a managerial role, having direct reports, and to take a step back from implementations to operate on a strategic level, and my boss was open to all of it. He said they would be prepared to restructure our department to accommodate my requirements! So my boss is taking it to the MD to review, and we will catchup again on Thursday to see if we can firm up the plan! My main concern at this stage is that with me moving up, i would be taking a lot of my boss' current responsibilities on board - and i dont know whether there is enough to occupy him at a higher level. I guess it's potentially the perfect outcome really (apart from my colleague leaving). It looks like i may get the things i was prepared to leave my job for without going anywhere, and it'll give me the chance to cut my teeth in a more senior role in an environment that i'm comfortable in. Wish you all the best and with a big enough pay rise you might be able to tempt Matt to sell you the Zed back! Heh heh, that would be ideal! Edited September 22, 2014 by marzman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marzman Posted September 22, 2014 Author Share Posted September 22, 2014 THIS! You have just described my exact circumstances and current thinking, the only difference is that I work in Networking instead of Programming. I've been a bit luckier though and there is a Management position open at the moment which I've applied for, my interview's on Monday, but it's by no means guaranteed that I'll get it. I hope that your interview went well. I guess you can go in there all nonchalantly with your lottery win in your pocket, and make them think you'd be doing them a favour by taking the job! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Go for it, it's not all about the money but a new challenge to keep your mind working. I've just applied for a new post that actually pays less than current because the work experience available in the new post is simply not available else where.....in the long run though the skills I learn at the new post could increase my earning potential hugely as well opening up more interesting potential jobs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fodder Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 That's excellent news. I agree cutting your teeth in an environment you know is the perfect solution. You can gain the experience and move elsewhere when you have the people management skills you are after. Great to hear of folks moving their career in the direction THEY want. I'm in a similar position but its almost the reverse. I'm feel like I'm being encouraged to apply for a team leader role but for a function I did many years back. It will grow into a middle management position over the next year or so but I'm a hands on engineer and this is for an operations position where I know my troubleshooting is second to none but I don't enjoy it. the reason I've mentioned it is because I think there's many of us who are in similar positions and this thread has been useful to them Oh and good luck! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Bit of a thread hi-jack but I had my interview yesterday, though I'd hate to call how it went... I think I knocked some of the questions out of the park and others were a bit harder. The role is essentially to manage the team I work in. Easy questions were things like "explain what you'd change about the team / the way we work today", but much harder ones were things like "tell us about a time when you managed a high performing team". Even managed to throw in an anecdote about crashing that rental at the Nurbergring which seemed to go down well. I the hard ones difficult because I don't really have any team management experience, so all I could do was talk about times when I was the technical lead on a project and I had to get other people doing things for me... might not be what they wanted but that's all I had to offer. Find out by the end of next week apparently. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 Well done marzman and everyone else who is trying to get up the career ladder. Best of luck to you all and keep us posted please Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabbitstew Posted September 23, 2014 Share Posted September 23, 2014 I guess it's potentially the perfect outcome really (apart from my colleague leaving). It looks like i may get the things i was prepared to leave my job for without going anywhere, and it'll give me the chance to cut my teeth in a more senior role in an environment that i'm comfortable in. I wouldnt get too excited until you know more about exactly what you will be doing in the new position. You may end up not only doing managerial stuff, but also doing the same as you do now. So effectively they end up with you doing 2 jobs for the price of one. Ive seen that happen a few times! Happened to me once too. I remember accepting a job as a manger at one company only to then find out that they had just sacked 3 managers and effectively replaced them with just me! So I was then doing 3 jobs for 1 salary. The stress was unbelievable. At other companies, if employees say they want to be promoted, more responsibility etc. Then they simply add "senior" to their job title. Makes the employee feel that they are moving up the ladder and are now more senior, but in actual fact their job hasnt changed at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Bit of a thread hi-jack but I had my interview yesterday, though I'd hate to call how it went... I think I knocked some of the questions out of the park and others were a bit harder. The role is essentially to manage the team I work in. Easy questions were things like "explain what you'd change about the team / the way we work today", but much harder ones were things like "tell us about a time when you managed a high performing team". Even managed to throw in an anecdote about crashing that rental at the Nurbergring which seemed to go down well. I the hard ones difficult because I don't really have any team management experience, so all I could do was talk about times when I was the technical lead on a project and I had to get other people doing things for me... might not be what they wanted but that's all I had to offer. Find out by the end of next week apparently. I GOT THE JOB!!!! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fodder Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Fantastic news! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 The advice given here is pretty good TBH, you need to consider that while it might be difficult to make a break now, in 5 years you will almost certainly wonder why you didnt do it sooner - unless there is a clear path mapped out for you within your current company then I think its always good to get some new experiences and different approaches to doing things. BTW, Im currently looking for IT Project Managers in Dubai. Seriously, drop me a line if you want more information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twobears Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Well done commander 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glrnet Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Excellent news Commander, I should do the lottery if I were you, oh wait............................... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fodder Posted September 24, 2014 Share Posted September 24, 2014 Excellent news Commander, I should do the lottery if I were you, oh wait............................... I truly did laugh at that one! I love hearing about people having good fortune which the lottery win was but I also love hearing about people grafting hard for what they want and achieving it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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