Motorbikes & Burkas

[tomdotc]

Not sure about elsewhere but locally to me, when filling up with petrol there's always signs on every pump to say that bikers must take their helmets off. Now personally I don't have an issue with this as I did it anyway when I was on my bike but a few other bikers I know get rather passionate about this and question, why do they need to take their helmet off when people with burkas can fill up and not get questioned?

 

After all, they believe it's discrimination against bikers when people can simply put a burka on and not be questioned at all.

 

Just wanted to see what other people think about this.

[DoogyRev]

. . . and I think you have just opened a can of worms

 

So to all who post on this thread . . be warned we will be watching

 

[Ekona]

So you saw the Britain First thing on FB too, then. All I will say is do some research into Britain First and certain extremist right wing groups before sharing that around.

 

More people rob petrol stations every year whilst wearing helmets than burkas. Likewise, there's a higher proportion of terrorists that are of Muslim descent than ride motorbikes. As such, I feel that it's fair to make biker remove helmets when buying fuel, and vice versa when entering the country.

 

 

Oh, I have no doubt the racist card will be played here at some point, but it's very hard to argue with numbers at this point. It's the same reason that more coloured folks get stopped and searched than white folks: Purely, the stats say they're more likely to be carrying. Until stats say differently, I have no objection to groups being singled out. It's no different than myself being a white Essex lad being more likely to be stopped whilst driving a loud fast car than an elderly coloured gent, although slightly less likely to end up as front page news.

 

Is that right, or fair? No, probably not. Until we end up living in Minority Report though, it's how life is going to be.

[Flex]

Tbf, I don't mind taking my lid off as wouldn't hear owt with it on anyway and if the assistant is fit I'll want to talk to him/her.

 

Also if people that peeved why not just go to a pay at pump and keep it on?

[Jetpilot]

If the issue is one of security, I.e facial recognition, then yes, anything that covers or obscures the face should be removed, one rule for all. I dont walk into petrol stations wearing a balaclava and wouldnt expect to get away with doing so.

 

I hear what Ekona is saying, bike helmets are associated with crime as a means of hiding your identity, but under the same logic we would all be branded racists if we associate burkha wearers as being terrorists or suicide bombers.

[ilogikal1]

For me it comes down to the simple fact that burkas are worn due to religious reasons, biker's helmets are warn for safety reasons when riding a bike - ergo when not riding a bike, there's no real reason to keep it on. It may be discrimination if it were limited to bikers removing their helmets or just burkas being exempt, but in reality it's anything obscuring the face with the exception of anything worn for (legitimate) religious reasons.

 

It reminds me of the helmets & turbans argument years ago (and yes, I am now thinking of that Only Fools episode too...).

[SJ350z]

I usually keep my lid on while filling up and have never been told to take it off. Don't want to get into arguments but mentioning burkhas is a fair point. Cant be one rule for one and a diff one for someone else. They both hide identity. Just my 2 cents

[WhackyWill]

Are Turban wearing Sikh's still exempt from wearing crash helmets on religious grounds,

[Jetpilot]

For me it comes down to the simple fact that burkas are worn due to religious reasons

 

with the exception of anything worn for (legitimate) religious reasons.

 

Ah religion, the good old get out clause.

 

What about "if" a religion was the exact opposite and it was against you wearing clothes, would they be allowed to wander around naked, would they f...

 

The simple answer to the op's question is just, no one has the spine to say, burkhas must be removed when entering petrol stations/banks etc because they would all be up in arms shouting "racist" at the top of their voices.

 

2nd post on the thread says it all, be careful of what you say.

 

If wearing a burkha is a security issue, remove it, its not racist, its just the way it is for the same reason as you would have to remove a crash helmet, cant see the problem myself, unless they want to make it a problem

[ilogikal1]

Ah religion, the good old get out clause.

 

Hardly a "get out clause". More "the reason for wearing the burka in the first place" and, more importantly, "the difference between wearing a burka and a crash helmet"; the purpose of wearing a crash helmet is removed when not riding the bike, the purpose of wearing a burka is not removed when entering a petrol station. You don't have to agree with it, but then you don't have to buy petrol from places that do agree with it either.

 

What about "if" a religion was the exact opposite and it was against you wearing clothes, would they be allowed to wander around naked, would they f...

 

Assuming it's a like-for-like swap, i.e. an established practice of an established and recognised religion then; no of course not. But only because of the pre-existing decency laws in this country. There are no laws broken in wearing a burka, even in a petrol station, so it's an irrelevant comparison.

[Jetpilot]

Ah religion, the good old get out clause.

 

Hardly a "get out clause". More "the reason for wearing the burka in the first place" and, more importantly, "the difference between wearing a burka and a crash helmet"; the purpose of wearing a crash helmet is removed when not riding the bike, the purpose of wearing a burka is not removed when entering a petrol station. You don't have to agree with it, but then you don't have to buy petrol from places that do agree with it either.

 

What about "if" a religion was the exact opposite and it was against you wearing clothes, would they be allowed to wander around naked, would they f...

 

Assuming it's a like-for-like swap, i.e. an established practice of an established and recognised religion then; no of course not. But only because of the pre-existing decency laws in this country. There are no laws broken in wearing a burka, even in a petrol station, so it's an irrelevant comparison.

 

Of course its a get out clause, their religion doesnt state they MUST wear burkhas, its worn through choice, not all Muslims wear burkhas

 

Its not an irrelevant comparison at all, lets look at the the wearing of a motorbike helmet law, its compulsory to wear a helmet, its the law, whether is still relevant today i am not sure, but as mentioned elsewhere, sikhs didnt have to wear helmets because of their turbans, so the question stands, if a religion stated you to be naked, would that be accepted, even though its against the law?

 

Its not against the law to wear a crash helmet, so why should i remove it when filling up, regardless of its designed purpose?

Edited September 6, 2014 by Jetpilot

[BulletMagnet]

I'm gonna wear a burkha under a helmet, see how that turns out

[GMballistic]

I'm gonna wear a burkha under a helmet, see how that turns out

[ilogikal1]

Its not against the law to wear a crash helmet, so why should i remove it when filling up, regardless of its designed purpose?

 

Ultimately because the proprietor of the business you are frequenting has asked you to do so if you chose to frequent that business. It would seem from SJ350z's post above that not all petrol stations require you to do so (or at least enforce the rule), so you're under no obligation to use those which do. You pays your money...

 

I will concede the other points to you though. I don't necessarily agree with you, but nor can I (competently) argue against them either.

Edited September 6, 2014 by ilogikal1

[JetSet]

Living up here in rural North Wales I'd never seen anyone wearing a Burka until I visited my daughter in Cardiff 4 years ago. Sinister looking things and quite Klu Klux Klanish. I have to reluctantly admire women that wear them though, they frequently get spat at and verbally abused, must be hard for them.

 

 

Pete

Edited September 7, 2014 by JetSet

[GMballistic]

Living up here in rural North Wales I'd never seen anyone wearing a Burka until I visited my daughter in Cardiff 4 years ago. Sinister looking things and quite Klu Klux Klanish.

 

 

Pete

Yes I agree with that Pete ~ personally I don't like it at all. Just another way for "some" Muslim men to domineer & repress their women.

 

It's their religion and for most of them their own choice to wear such things.

[Jetpilot]

Its not against the law to wear a crash helmet, so why should i remove it when filling up, regardless of its designed purpose?

 

Ultimately because the proprietor of the business you are frequenting has asked you to do so if you chose to frequent that business.

 

And there In is the answer, the proprietor has asked for helmets to be removed, obviously for reasons of security and Identity, no issue or problem what so ever, helmet removed, so why should that same proprietor not be able to also ask for burkhas to be removed for the very same reasons!

 

As you also say, Muslims are under no obligation to use, you pays your money.....

[Ekona]

The proprietor is more than welcome to ask for burkas to be removed, if he can prove a security threat. That would be very easy to do so, same rule as UKBA use.

 

Whether he'd still be in business after his shop was burnt down, is another matter altogether. It's why no-one in the mainstream media dares to make jokes or unflattering comments about Islam, and certainly never draws cartoons any more. Practicality vs realism.

[ilogikal1]

And there In is the answer, the proprietor has asked for helmets to be removed, obviously for reasons of security and Identity, no issue or problem what so ever, helmet removed, so why should that same proprietor not be able to also ask for burkhas to be removed for the very same reasons!

 

As you also say, Muslims are under no obligation to use, you pays your money.....

 

And there's the mentality I just don't understand; you're happy to remove your helmet, so ultimately what difference does it really make what anyone else is or isn't asked to remove? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand that at all.

 

Incidentally, they are able to ask for burkas to be removed, just as they are able to refuse to serve anybody for any reason they want. Why don't they? Well, you'd have to ask them. I have no doubt that the reality is that some people chose to respect their religious beliefs just as others are afraid of the fallout from doing so.

[JetSet]

Living up here in rural North Wales I'd never seen anyone wearing a Burka until I visited my daughter in Cardiff 4 years ago. Sinister looking things and quite Klu Klux Klanish.

 

 

Pete

 

 

It's their religion and for most of them their own choice to wear such things.

 

They are conditioned from birth to accept that this is what they must do. Nothing exceptional about Muslims though it happens to one degree or another in many religions, Mormons, Catholics, Witnesses and many other Christian based religions as well. It's a common sight in parts of Colorado to see Amish women dressed in pioneer style clothing.

 

Pete

[Jetpilot]

And there In is the answer, the proprietor has asked for helmets to be removed, obviously for reasons of security and Identity, no issue or problem what so ever, helmet removed, so why should that same proprietor not be able to also ask for burkhas to be removed for the very same reasons!

 

As you also say, Muslims are under no obligation to use, you pays your money.....

 

And there's the mentality I just don't understand; you're happy to remove your helmet, so ultimately what difference does it really make what anyone else is or isn't asked to remove? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't understand that at all.

 

Incidentally, they are able to ask for burkas to be removed, just as they are able to refuse to serve anybody for any reason they want. Why don't they? Well, you'd have to ask them. I have no doubt that the reality is that some people chose to respect their religious beliefs just as others are afraid of the fallout from doing so.

 

Why should it be one rule for one, and one for another, helmet, balaclava, ski mask, burkha, its all the same, its concealing ones identity??

 

Yes they are entitled to ask, but you know as well as i do why they wont, because as Ekona says they would be subject of probably front page press (at the least) because everyone in this country is so damn scared of being branded a racist because of political correctness, when fact of the matter is its nothing to do with racism.

[ilogikal1]

Why should it be one rule for one, and one for another, helmet, balaclava, ski mask, burkha, its all the same, its concealing ones identity??

 

Yes they are entitled to ask, but you know as well as i do why they wont, because as Ekona says they would be subject of probably front page press (at the least) because everyone in this country is so damn scared of being branded a racist because of political correctness, when fact of the matter is its nothing to do with racism.

 

So you're offended by them trying not to offend one group of people then? That's how it reads to me; you have no problem with the practice of removing head wear until someone is excused from doing so. It just seems a little petty to me, not least because it makes no difference to you whether someone's wearing a burka or not. If it's a security concern about robberies (like the crash helmet policy), it's the petrol station staff that should be concerned, no? It's like going to someone's house and being asked to take your shoes off before coming in and you being fine with it until you see someone in the house wearing slippers.

 

I see where you're coming from, it's not fair that there are different rules for everyone, but not everyone's the same so why should they be treated as if they are? Burkas are treated differently to crash helmets because, aside from the fact that they cover the face, they are entirely different right down to the reason for having it on in the first place, which takes me back to my original point.

[Jetpilot]

Why should it be one rule for one, and one for another, helmet, balaclava, ski mask, burkha, its all the same, its concealing ones identity??

 

Yes they are entitled to ask, but you know as well as i do why they wont, because as Ekona says they would be subject of probably front page press (at the least) because everyone in this country is so damn scared of being branded a racist because of political correctness, when fact of the matter is its nothing to do with racism.

 

So you're offended by them trying not to offend one group of people then?

 

I see where you're coming from, it's not fair that there are different rules for everyone, but not everyone's the same so why should they be treated as if they are?

 

Yeah basically your right but more because of the double standards, try popping over to a Muslim country and making demands, see how far you get, if you really p*ss them off, you might get your head cut off

 

Everyone is the same apparently, colour of skin/religion makes no difference, this is what we are told daily, we are expected to integrate and be a multi cultural society, to which i have no issue, the problem is, they dont want to integrate, they want their own rules, even laws dare i say, its the thin end of the wedge if you ask me and things like this are just the tip of the iceberg

 

When in Rome.

[Bockaaarck]

I would like someone to provide me with a statistical analysis, from an official body recognised by law in this country. Of the number of garages historically held up by people wearing crash helmets, versus the number of garages historically held up by women wearing burkha's. I feel this might add something useful to the debate.

[Martinjj]

I would like someone to provide me with a statistical analysis, from an official body recognised by law in this country. Of the number of garages historically held up by people wearing crash helmets, versus the number of garages historically held up by women wearing burkha's. I feel this might add something useful to the debate.

 

Does Selfridges count?

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22811466