House of Lords

[Jetpilot]

So lets have some thoughts, was it right for the house of lords to vote to amend the bill?

[Paddy78]

Morally - yes. Democratically - probably not.

 

There does need to be something in place to oversee a government or they can introduce anything they choose. We might not like that these people aren't elected, but at least there is a barrier of some description.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Paddy78

[Jetpilot]

OK, being a little more specific, was it right for them to amend the bill looking to protect eu citizens in this country?

Edited March 2, 2017 by Jetpilot

[Paddy78]

Yes, why wouldn't we look to protect those that are contributing to our society?

[Jetpilot]

The Eu arent offering to protect uk citizens living in the Eu.

[Paddy78]

I'm sure they are looking to see what we do first before putting anything in place. These people, in the most part, contribute to our society, so why would we cut more of our nose off. I can't see there being a mandate from the EU that all UK citizens have to move back to the UK. There are already a myriad of nationalities (Non-EU) across the EU (Living and working) and they aren't going to send all those back as well.

[Ekona]

Yup, they absolutely were right to amend if that's what they feel is the correct thing to do. That said, they only did it to flex their weedy muscles, it won't make any difference and they'd have been just as right to leave the bloody thing alone so we can get on with leaving.

 

William Hague had it right on Jeremy Vine just now though, when he said that May had already stated she'd protect the rights of EU citizens living here but wanted the same guarantee from the EU about Brits living abroad. Could be sorted out in 5 mins, but Tusk and the Germans said no, not until A50 is triggered. No reason we should commit before the EU does.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Ekona

[Jetpilot]

I'm sure they are looking to see what we do first before putting anything in place. These people, in the most part, contribute to our society, so why would we cut more of our nose off. I can't see there being a mandate from the EU that all UK citizens have to move back to the UK. There are already a myriad of nationalities (Non-EU) across the EU (Living and working) and they aren't going to send all those back as well.

 

So we give up our bargaining chip, as Ekona says above, why would the Germans not just agree to a like for like deal?

[Lexx]

Let me just insert a small note from the mods here.

 

These types of discussions have had a habit of getting out of hand recently. So please keep this one sensible and without any personal attacks.

[Jetpilot]

^^^ I was going to say that myself but seemed a bit ironic coming from me

[Bullet]

All i see is delay, delay, delay with little crumbs of "oh look they've done something"

[KyleR]

Of course the EU citizens need protected, but I don't believe for 1 second that the UK or the EU would boot anyone out of either Union who is contributing to society. I didn't read the bill, I doubt anyone of us did, so I can't make a 100% judgement if what they did was right or not. My gut tells me they did the right thing.

[-G-]

Countdown to this thread getting locked - T Minus....

[Ekona]

No-one will get kicked out of anywhere, it'd be political suicide for either side to do so. I just don't believe we should be forced to act before we've even started the A50 process, as it weakens our hand.

[docwra]

The bit that everyone seems to be missing is that anything thats confirmed before we start negotiations weakens our negotiating position. Tusk is already rubbing his hands as he knows that EU people staying in UK is now a requirement, he could potentially request we pay £150 per individual that crosses the other way in order to allow it to happen. Lets say there are a million journeys each year, thats £150m that youve just spent of our newfound non EU budget.

 

Its basic negotiation, and this is why the Lords, the press and the electorate cant be promised anything before discussions start. Why Theresa couldnt have just pointed this out to the Lords I dont know........

[Ekona]

I think she has done, it's just that there's a lot of people with their head in the sand.

[coldel]

So I guess as I started the previous 93 page debate...

 

Morally I think yes. Democratically I say yes. Lords are giving a view of all people living here, not just those born here. In terms of democracy, the only thing that it counts for in this instance is that at some point, the UK exits the EU. No one voted for the terms of the exit, so the argument around it being undemocratic is not really applicable.

 

All that said, as above, the media report it is giving away a bargaining chip. Which is probably true, is that one chip out of a thousand though, I don't see May jumping up and down about it, how important was it? On the other hand, it would become a powerful 'political' chip for the UK if the EU decided to send UK nationals home, we would be seen pretty much across the board as the good guys and more pro-European than the actual EU, if the EU did send them back that sort of thing would only strengthen far right wing support across Europe and ultimately lessen the control of those pro-EU in every country. Pure speculation, haven't read that anywhere, but could be the case?

 

As for time, this is going to be a process taking years, potentially decades, a few weeks back and forth now is not really an issue, again its a political soundtrack for Brexiters but its not really going to have an impact in the grand scheme of things.

 

I think the overall problem is that the public misunderstand what they voted for, they voted to exit the EU, not the terms. The terms are there for all parties to ratify, the public will get what they voted for in an exit but have no say in how its done.

[Paddy78]

I'm sure they are looking to see what we do first before putting anything in place. These people, in the most part, contribute to our society, so why would we cut more of our nose off. I can't see there being a mandate from the EU that all UK citizens have to move back to the UK. There are already a myriad of nationalities (Non-EU) across the EU (Living and working) and they aren't going to send all those back as well.

 

So we give up our bargaining chip, as Ekona says above, why would the Germans not just agree to a like for like deal?

 

I see what you're saying, but we shouldn't be using repatriation as a bargaining chip, regardless of what other nations have or haven't agreed to do. Are we not better than that?

[Jetpilot]

Ok, so lets put it another way, why is Germany not wanting to as said, just sit down for 5 mins and say, yep all good, so long as the uk dont kick out any eu citizens when they become independent, the eu wont kick out any ex pats?

[Ekona]

Because they want to play it 100% by the rules, which clearly states in the Articles that no discussion can take place before A50 is triggered.

 

Common sense says to simply get it out of the way, but technically Ze Germanz are right on this.

[coldel]

I would suggest (and I am only guessing) is that the process is that the UK triggers the article and submits its terms for divorce which the EU has to respond to. So like it or not we have to reveal our hand first. As for Germany itself, we are not negotiating with Germany, its with the EU, the guy heading that up has to get a joint confirmation of all EU parties before committing to something we cannot agree different terms with different countries unilaterally?

[Jetpilot]

As for Germany itself, we are not negotiating with Germany

 

But by all accounts it is Germany saying, we wont agree to anything, perhaps to the letter of the law as Ekona says.

[Ekona]

All member states have to agree to a deal when another member leaves. If the Germans won't talk to us yet, it's pointless even having the conversation with the EU.

 

We will of course have to reveal our demands first, however that should be in a private meeting and not in public. None of the details of the deal should be revealed to the public until the deal is ready to be voted on by Parliament.

[Ekona]

That last bit is IMHO, just for clarity.

[Irn Bru]

The Lord's is nothing but cronism and an outdated 2nd teir council. Bin them and have an elected upper house put in place. How can democracy be claimed in a modern country when you have unelected ballons shouting down the elected government ?. After all most of them were 3rd rate civil servents who brown eyed the previous Prime Ministers and really have nothing to offer and no right to be shouting down an elected government. I sincerely hope that a general election comes along soon where a major player puts it into their election manifesto that they will reform the Lords and turn it to an elected house of representation for us minions and boot all these old codgers into touch.