Before & Before & After Dynos @Abbey

[coldel]

Be good to see the curves, as they are what is really interesting, the peak power is a nice number to quote but the area under the curve and smoothness is probably what you should be looking at.

[Tricky-Ricky]

A 23bhp gain over the std 276BHP would put it at

299BHP which is about average for mods and up

rev....unless your car had over std to start with?

[GMballistic]

A 23bhp gain over the std 276BHP would put it at

299BHP which is about average for mods and up

rev....unless your car had over std to start with?

See below Tricky.

car wasnt stock when it arrived , we have before as the car arrived and after bolting on the extra parts + the Uprev.

 

Was mentioned it already had a Toyosports Y-Pipe I believe but not sure what else. Maybe Mark or Pritchard can clear that up.

[Pritchard]

erm... see post #1 ?

 

mods on arrival:

Arrived with Cobra Cat-back exhaust (incl Y pipe.. which i didnt know I had until today until arrival. Y pipe made by Toyosports)

Lightweight flywheel

 

 

yea yes will upload the graphs as soon as i can. i have 0 loss anywhere on the graph. made gains all the way from 1,500rpm.

[coldel]

I guess the big question, what was the reading after bolt ons and a number of runs to let the ECU adjust?

[Tricky-Ricky]

I was going on the premise that as the ECU will dial out any mods before an up-rev remap, then the engine would be putting out the maximum std 276BHP + the 23BHP gained from the mods and remap so 276 + 23 = 299

[flyboy]

Quote

"248whp was the best run out of my initial when i turned up.

There was then a dyno readout that i saw when the ecu stuff was just beginning, that said 258whp. (but thats not the 3rd curve on my graph... Mark?)

And then my final power output, 271.6 "

 

 

So its 10hp from the mods and 13hp from the remap giving 23hp on total ???

Edited December 2, 2014 by flyboy

[Pritchard]

I was going on the premise that as the ECU will dial out any mods before an up-rev remap, then the engine would be putting out the maximum std 276BHP + the 23BHP gained from the mods and remap so 276 + 23 = 299

 

i would completely ignore BHP.

248@hubs,

272@hubs

 

correct and accurate figures.

if your going to try and be accurate with BHP its not going to work.

(23@ hubs isnt the same as 23@fly)

[StevoD]

Isnt bhp at the hubs?

 

Hp is at the fly

 

When I was at Abbey I was told allow for 30hp diffrence from the fly to hubs but if you've got a lightened fly there diffrence between bhp and hp should be alot closer than a dual mass

Edited December 2, 2014 by StevoD

[Tricky-Ricky]

I was going on the premise that as the ECU will dial out any mods before an up-rev remap, then the engine would be putting out the maximum std 276BHP + the 23BHP gained from the mods and remap so 276 + 23 = 299

 

i would completely ignore BHP.

248@hubs,

272@hubs

 

correct and accurate figures.

if your going to try and be accurate with BHP its not going to work.

(23@ hubs isnt the same as 23@fly)

 

 

If the figures are not BHP then what are they measured in????

[Pritchard]

Isnt bhp at the hubs?

 

Hp is at the fly

 

 

Nope.

HP is Horsepower, the preceeding letter is where its measured.

WHP @ at the wheels (rolling road dyno)

HHP @ at the hubs (chasis dyno - the one at Abbeys)

BHP @ at the flywheel (can ONLY be measured if the engine is removed from the car. otherwise its an estimate)

 

*edit. i think i quoted WHP earlier... thats me being lazy. sorry. Abbey dyno is HP at the Hubs, not the wheels.

Edited December 2, 2014 by Pritchard

[StevoD]

I was going on the premise that as the ECU will dial out any mods before an up-rev remap, then the engine would be putting out the maximum std 276BHP + the 23BHP gained from the mods and remap so 276 + 23 = 299

 

i would completely ignore BHP.

248@hubs,

272@hubs

 

correct and accurate figures.

if your going to try and be accurate with BHP its not going to work.

(23@ hubs isnt the same as 23@fly)

 

 

If the figures are not BHP then what are they measured in????

 

Bhp is rating of power at the hubs

 

HP is the rating of power from a motor without any transmission loss

[StevoD]

Isnt bhp at the hubs?

 

Hp is at the fly

 

 

Nope.

HP is Horsepower, the preceeding letter is where its measured.

WHP @ at the wheels (rolling road dyno)

HHP @ at the hubs (chasis dyno - the one at Abbeys)

BHP @ at the flywheel (can ONLY be measured if the engine is removed from the car. otherwise its an estimate)

 

*edit. i think i quoted WHP earlier... thats me being lazy. sorry. Abbey dyno is HP at the Hubs, not the wheels.

 

Fair enough seem cars go against all industrial machine in the world which bhp is taken when the engine/motor is under load and HP is what the motor alone produces

 

After doing a little reading the bhp is just a Braked measurement which can be measured at any point so you can get a Braked horsespower output from the fly hubs or wheels,

 

But as you don't just sit on the engine and float down the road the entire car as a machine's bhp output would be at The hubs as it's that that makes the car move so the bhp at the hubs is the important number unless your looking for a penis extension down the pub

 

Guess it depends how you word it

 

My car outputs 300bhp

Or my engine outputs 300bhp

Edited December 3, 2014 by StevoD

[KyleR]

Am I reading this correctly that there wasn't a middle dyne plotted out for when the mods were fitted but before UpRev?

 

If there wasn't then there is still no proof/evidence of the ECU dealing out the possible gains from bolt ons. Even though the car already had a catback fitted, it still would have been worth while seeing the numbers.

[Tricky-Ricky]

Ahh! I see we are doing the old BHP,FWHP and wheel or hub HP thing, regardless of which you choose to use you gained 23 of whatever you choose to call it over std figures, which is the point I was making.

Once we see some graph's all in one form of measurement we can see the gains.

[Mark@Abbey m/s]

Isnt bhp at the hubs?

 

Hp is at the fly

 

When I was at Abbey I was told allow for 30hp diffrence from the fly to hubs but if you've got a lightened fly there diffrence between bhp and hp should be alot closer than a dual mass

 

A lightened flywheel makes no difference to bhp/torque number just response.

 

 

A 23bhp gain over the std 276BHP would put it at

299BHP which is about average for mods and up

rev....unless your car had over std to start with?

 

we just go by the number seen on our dyno when the car arrived , the car put down 248 HUB bhp on arrival after 3 runs.

 

 

Be good to see the curves, as they are what is really interesting, the peak power is a nice number to quote but the area under the curve and smoothness is probably what you should be looking at.

 

totally agree , here are the Graphs

 

 

 

Cant believe your all talking about BHP figures doesn't matter where it is measure it is all BHP, in fact the BHP number is calculated from a torque measurement.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Mark@Abbey m/s

[Mark@Abbey m/s]

Mark @ Abbey, please could you clear something up for me? I keep reading on here the mantra that installing any mods is pointless - Without an UPREV map tune and that the standard ECU 'dials back' any benefits from any installed mods. I find that very strange as my knowledge is the the ECU will use it's mapping to OPTIMISE the conditions it operates under within it's preset parameters ( Your statement about the ECU learning hence the few runs needed appears to support this). Obviously these internal map tweaks will be narrower than optimum for many mods and within a range of tolerances encountered using OEM Nissan parts, and is a generic map given to all that certain model of Zed, hence I understand why an UPREV will totally optimise the engine mapping, actually either with or without any mods. Bit long winded sorry - so does the ECU optimise within its own mapping capabilities?

 

And ECU is calibrated , the Nissan 350Z ECU works to parameters calibrated within the ECU;

 

So when you change bolt on items the ECU will use the calibration to tune the car to the inputted figures;

 

the main map used int eECU is the AFR layout map as below

 

 

so it when you bolt on your mods the car will tune back to these AFR figures so the AFR will never be optimised for your mods. We use a AFR layout map as below;

 

 

the other issue is when you improve the breathing of your car the car will consume more air so there run further up the map , your seen the numbers in the X axis are increased in the Abbey Map , a stock ECU car with added mods will run off the end of the X axis after fitting bolt on mods so the last number the ECU reads before it runs off the end of the map it will keep using so the fuelling/ignition and other maps that use base fuel schedule on the X axis.

 

The gain in output over dyno runs comes from the small amount of Ignition active tuning the car has.

 

The above is the main worry after fitting breathing improvement items to a car.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Mark@Abbey m/s

[Tricky-Ricky]

I presume the top scale is the load scale v RPM? so I can see that the load scale is extended in the Abbey one, and it looks like the original table is a bit richer, so going by that surly adding breathing mods would lean these AFRs out slightly, and in theory making slightly better power? at leas in the lower side of the scale?

 

Anyway glad Prichard is happy with his gains and improvements regardless of the figures, perhaps he will get a chance to have a drive today by the look of the weather.

[Mark@Abbey m/s]

I will put some dyno AFR logs up later on today to help clarify why bolting stuff on doesn't work and the difference between cars as well.

[brillomaster]

i'd say that was win win all round, healthy car to start with and a very healthy gain of BHP and torque

[Grundy]

Where does the 307 figure come from?

[StevoD]

Isnt bhp at the hubs?

 

Hp is at the fly

 

When I was at Abbey I was told allow for 30hp diffrence from the fly to hubs but if you've got a lightened fly there diffrence between bhp and hp should be alot closer than a dual mass

 

A lightened flywheel makes no difference to bhp/torque number just response.

 

 

 

Wouldn't the low mass make the difference between engine hp and hub hp closer than a car without a lightened flywheel

 

seeing as it will take less power to turn a lightened flywheels?

Edited December 3, 2014 by StevoD

[KyleR]

Where does the 307 figure come from?

 

It's made up/guestimated/calculated. The 350 is thought to lose between 30 and 40 BHP between the engine and the wheels, the dyno measures at the wheels, whereas manufacturer figures are got at the flywheel on a table I believe, so will always be higher than the numbers you can get on a dyne yourself, providing your car is standard.

 

I have a feeling I just typed all that out and you knew that already, though

[Tricky-Ricky]

I was under the impression BHP,WHP, FWHP, where all calculated from torque, IE torque x engine RPM = BHP,

But depending on the measuring point IE wheels, hubs or crankshaft there are losses to be factored in, which are also calculated/educated guesses unless there is an accurately measured value, so anything that is not measured on a dedicated engine dyno is an approximate value.

[Floydbax]

Mark@Abbey, thanks for taking the time to explain that - appreciated