Money saved from strike going to charity

[Chesterfield]

Its one thing to say that the large salaries by public sector bosses have skewed the average public sector salary, but its still higher than the private sector average, which you could argue is eaually skewed by several hundred, if not thousand private sector bosses on £1m+ salaries. So the salaries of bosses alone in the public sector is not skewing the average above that of the private sector.

 

Im not for one minue suggesting that a Nurse is not worth a bankers salary. They certainly are in some cases. But what of a footballer? do they deserve more than a Nurse? Does a teacher? A policeman? Do you or I?

 

Its the way the world is.

 

Even removing the financial crisis, the public sector pensions are unsustainable. They would have been unsustainable had the collapse not happened just as they are now. The bottom line is that there is more coming out than going in, regardless of financial matters outside the scheme. What the financial crisis has done is bring it to a head much sooner, as the treasury finds itself having to tighten its belt.

 

Without wanting to sound too harsh about it and follow an overly capitalist line, if our banks didn't pay the million pound salaries that they do, then those individuals would simply work in Asia or America where they will pay the salary. Although they may not deal with life and death issues every day, they can be damned good at what they do - and without them we wouldnt be raising the tax revenue from our banks and those individuals that we are.

 

Lets not forget, with the new 50% tax rate, should a banker get paid a £1m bonus, they will be paying £500k, or the entire pension pot of possibly several public sector workers in one month. Drive these people and their businesses away and we will have an even harder job filling the gap required.

 

If public sector is not reformed and we just levy more taxes on the private sector, especially those that contribute billions in tax revenue, then those businesses/individuals will up sticks and move. Who's going to pay the public sector then? Some of us may be doing well, but not for a minute would we fill the funding gap left behind if some financial institutions removed themselves from the UK.

[Ekona]

Frankly I think the *ankers have got away with daylight robbery on massive scales and yet they are still awarding themselves lottery money bonus - they are the ones that have caused the financial crises that should be slammed, not your average private/public sector worker who end up being the victims in all of this.

Agreed, however they are also the only people who can get us out of this mess. It's not a great situation and it does highlight one of the perils of capitalism, but the truth is that if we take all their bonuses then they'll simply up sticks and take their money elsewhere, and then we're truly screwed. Chesterfield has said it better than me in his post above though.

 

Personally I feel that we aim a bit too much flack at the banks for their role in the current crisis: Yes, the dealing they did amongst themselves was shady at best and downright dangerous at worst, but there were also a lot of people out there happy to take that 100% mortgage offer or spend a fortune on credit cards because they were there. On an individual level, we're all as much to blame as if we didn't take all that lovely credit then we'd all have a bit more cash to play with now, myself included.

 

Is a nurse or a teacher worth more than a footballer? The answer is no, as we're all equal on this lovely planet of ours and people tend to drift towards what either they want to do or what they're good at. Nursing or teaching is never going to be a job you do for the money, it's something you do because you love it, and you know that you'll never be a millionaire but you get satisfaction from helping people on a personal level. I deal with sh*t all day (literally!) and I hate my job at times, but it gives me and my employees a decent living and so I put up with that. If I could start again I'd probably rather go into teaching as I look at how much difference Jo makes to the lives of the kids she teaches and I'd love that kind of job satisfaction, but I am where I am and I'll make the most of it. What I won't do is whinge and moan and go on strike because all of a sudden my finances have changed through no real fault of my own and when everyone else is in the same position.

 

 

If the public sector were being asked to have their pay slashed by 50% and to have no pension at all, they'd be right to be aggrieved and I'd be out there in support of them. As it stands they're only being asked to give up a tiny fraction more, like the rest of us in the private sector have had to, to ensure that we can move forward and start to build this nation of ours back up again.

[coldel]

+1 to the power n+1 where n equals infinity .. here here

[sasha@lazytrips]

This is one point I fundamentally disagree with. Granted, it's coming from somebody who has actually worked in banks and could be classified as a "banker" in the recent past.

 

1. I did not have a huge salary or extortionate bonuses.

2. Neither do 99% of people working in all the banks in this country.

3. Believe it or not, but the media hype around "playing the lottery" with 2-3 individual fraud cases as highlights are complete nonsense. The regulations, internal policies and the models/systems used by 99.9% of all banks and in all types of operations are very carefully thought through for a reason.

 

The reason the whole situation happened is because we as a society have built up an opinion that living beyond our means is acceptable. This has led to every single entity from an individual person to a small business to a large corporation and almost every country spending more than they had coming in. Clearly this is all a self-inflicted Ponzi scheme as on average these entities all borrowed more money from X to pay off Y. The big problem is this attitude at every level of our society and until the concept of a deficit is not severely changed in people's psyche, this problem will not go away.

 

Here's a simple example of how the world works at the moment:

 

Start: Persons A, B & C have 0 debt. Nobody has any problems.

 

Person A borrows £200 from person B and owes them £400 including interest.

Person B borrows £400 from Person C to lend to Person A. They owe Person C £800 including interest.

Person C borrows £800 from Person A to pay Person B. They owe Person B £1,600 including interest.

Person A borrows £1,600 from person B to pay Person C. They now owe person B £3,200 including interest plus the majority of the original (and not yet paid £400)..

 

etc, etc.

 

***

 

And the biggest problem of the lot is that people have gotten used to this way of life and nobody wants to lower their expectations of living standards. Everybody regardless of income expects to "have the right" to own a house, two cars, 3 TVs, new kitchen, yada yada. All the idiots (excuse my french - there is no more succinct word here) who say otherwise and go about protesting because life is unfair and everybody is out to get them really need to wake up.

 

As previously pointed out, if a teacher on £30k gets a £20k pension (40/60ths), the price of said annuity is going to be >£650k. In order to accumulate that kind of money, accounting for some average inflation and all that jazz, you're looking at paying around £400 a month out of your salary. Given that most public sector employees contribute around £120 out of that amount, who is gonna pay to more than treble their contributions?

[rtbiscuit]

well i'm sat in my classroom with a few a level students who are in to work.

 

my department of 12 is today just 3, car park near empty,

 

very quiet

[coldel]

Like the point on individuals taking responsibility, I have had a few of these discussions over the last couple of years with some interesting reactions:

 

'You have borrowed too much, you couldnt possibly repay that much' answer ' but the government made it impossible for me to afford it without borrowing'

 

Now, not sure how much truth there is in that, as a student I lived on £12 a week and no that wasnt in old money! I can imagine some people are seriously living in dire conditions - but its the people I have spoken to in the past about debt and they brushed it off that are complaining now that gets my goat. My wife met up with two old school friends after not seeing them for years last year. She turned up casually dressed and ordered a drink, they turned up like they were off to a wedding and ordered champers. Becks stuck to her own drinks. Turns out they were both in modest paid jobs, much lower than Becks in fact, and one had a credit card with £36k on and the other a touch less. When Becks told me my jaw almost hit the ground.

 

You could argue that the governement could have done this and bankers could have done that - but racking up that sort of debt is stupid, utter stupidity, and still spending more... Okay banks shouldnt have made it so easy to borrow, but for gods sake people, use some brain power here. I was dumbfounded, in fact, even now shaking my head as I type!

[Chesterfield]

well i'm sat in my classroom with a few a level students who are in to work.

 

my department of 12 is today just 3, car park near empty,

 

very quiet

 

 

I hope none of those on strike are teaching economics, at any level.

[Chris`I]

I hope none of those on strike are teaching economics, at any level.

BIG +1

[Ebized]

In my last 10 years with a Local Authority I saw the salaries of the Directors and higher-end managers grow out of all proportion compared to the 'coal face' public sector employees who often have to deal with very challenging 'customers' and take the day-to-day flak in the face.

 

Going back 20 odd years when this disparity really got started and the move for savings was seen as bringing in 'expertise' from the private sector, in my experience it just led to shambles because they were solely charged with financial savings and had little, in any, understanding of the public service LA's are under a duty to undertake by statute.

 

Over that time we have seen the wage disparity across all work areas grow and those at the bottom end see little betterment in their lifestyles - more the opposite nowadays. Do we see those at the top end similarly 'suffering'? Certainly not in the area where I live given the various building projects I get to see

 

I am just concerned that those who are not at the top end and so not able to 'milk' the system, whether they are in the private or public sectors, have disproportionally taken the greater brunt of cuts - whatever job they do. OK, so the same system is largely worldwide and I accept that keeping this country 'competitive' sadly means top-end salaries are unlikely to result in fairer wealth distribution anytime soon.

 

The increasing availabilty of credit has, until very recently and made possible by yes, guess who.... using all sorts of enticing offers and with Governments endorsement, has been the single biggest factor that has got us in the situation we are now.

 

When I was seeking my first mortgage back in the late sixties, even though me and my future wife were in secure jobs and could demonstrate we had been saving for in excess of 2 years well in excess of what the monthly payments that would be required for the mortgage we needed, we had a devil of a job getting one. The fact that since then those in the private sector 'handling' our money have gradually made credit more and more easier to the point both Governments and ordinary people were living more and more 'on tick' is what has caused the present mess.

 

So yes, I do get concerned when I see those who have, or are doing very nicely out of what has been faciliated by the banks and succesive Governments, bemoan those not so fortunate finding themselevs less well off through no fault of their own. They are the ones taking the biggest hit on their incomes. Probably like most on here that post, I suspect, in order to keep a reasonable standard of living going rather than having a very very comfortable standard of living that is enjoyed by those who can usually dictate or control their own income and have access to good accountants.

 

But then I come back into reality and know that nothing is 'fair' in this world and whatever I think or say ain't going to change anything, but at least I got it off my chest

[Chesterfield]

Just because credit became easier to get does not mean people had to use it.

 

Those taking out 100% mortgages, buying all their worldly goods on credit and generally living beyond their means cannot simply hold their hands up and say "Its not my fault. They made it so easy I just had to" when the debts are called in.

 

When Tracy and myself applied for a mortgage at the height of this credit fuelled world, the sums they would lend were ridiculous to say the least. The payments at the top end of what they would lend us were "manageable", but they would have stretched us a bit.

 

It didn't take a genius to quickly work out what the repayments would be if we returned back to 3% or 4% base rates during the lifetime of a mortgage, or indeed if our income took a dive and could see instantly that the repayments would bankrupt us.

 

I also dont buy that those at the top end have not been hit as much as those at the bottom. If the expenditure of those earning £1m salaries was the same as those earning £20k, then yes they have a lot more disposeable income. However, if they do as many do, and live within their means, or at least up to them, is their disposeable income enough to swallow some of the higher rate taxes and cuts introduced?

 

The introduction of a new 50% tax on those earners of £1m, added an extra £85,000 to their tax bill overnight. What if that £85,000 was their disposeable income? What if it was their mortgage repayments? I suppose its ok, as they are rich, they can afford it, they will just have to come down a peg or two. Those at the bottom have no wriggle room so they struggle.

 

While its a popular line and one the unions seem to spout ad nauseam, stating that those who are better off should be taxed more and pay their fair share is, for the most part I would assume, starting to wear a bit thin on those people.

 

Since tax year 09/10 to tax year 11/12, An earner of £115k has seen an increase of over £3800 on their PAYE (3.3%). An earner of £25k has seen a reduction in their PAYE of around £180 (0.7%)

 

The fingers can be waved at the bankers, or the MP's or the rich all day long, but the sooner we realise we are all in this together the sooner we can try and move forward. Unfortunately this attitude we have in Britain that its "always someone elses fault" will not get us out of this one.

[Chris`I]

Well said Chris. The problems is that everyone WANTS everything, and that was far too easy to achieve using credit. When Amanda and I got our mortgage 4 or so years back, they were willing to lend us 110% value of the house. Our incumbant bank - HSBC - wouldnt even talk to us about anything less than their great 100% mortgage. They werent even intersted in lending us the 80% we wanted at a lower rate! So we took ourselves elsewhere. We saw quite a few friends at the time take big percentage mortgages and now they are struggling. Even with Key Fact documents outlining the pitfalls, people are just too greedy to think about "what if" scenarios

[Ebized]

Its just like we see on here - some look to own a ZED but it becomes apparent they stuggle to find the means to support it, having borrowed for the purchase.

 

Put temptation on the table and there will always be those who decide with their heart rather than their head. We live in a material age where having the latest what-have-you is king. If the potential to buy things on tick cannot be realised because the moneymen decide its too risky to lend on, then at least it dosen't all end up in tears.

 

I see this with my two lads in their early thirties and the only thing that is helping them get by is the current low interest rate - sadly their future aspirations for bettering themselves are now very much on hold because of the current economic situation and having borrowed, like all their university mates were doing, up to the hilt - because it was available and was the 'norm'.

 

Sadly, an awful lot of people are going to suffer for years to come.

[rtbiscuit]

i borrowed to put myself through uni, and i borrowed to help pay for part of my wedding, but i borrowed within my means, i can meet the payments and i am reducing not increasing the amount. but i have been careful to borrow on 0% and i bounce them to new cards as it runs out. so as i pay it off the amount shrinks.

 

i have nearly halved my debt in 6 years, i know i have a bit longer to go, but it was planned, i have money to live and a bit left over and i also save some money in 3 different accounts each month.

 

there are lots of things i would love to own, but if i can;t afford it i don't buy it.

 

credit it useful, it has a purpose, but like said abovew it should always be done with in your means.

 

credit is not evil, but alot of people seem to be missing a self control button. i got a call this week from virgin offering to extend my 0% loan. i never asked but they seem to be pedalling it. i declined. they seem to know a lot of people won;t say no and think, ooooooo i can go get that new TV now.

 

there was a lady on the news recently complaining her benefits need increasing as times were hard, they interviewed her in her house with her 3 kids, they had a massive TV all the latest electronics, sh1t loads of toys, and she'd just got a new boxer dog. when questioned why did she need all this her answer "well my kids can;t go whithout"

 

i had very little as a kid and i was quiet happy, my parents didn't earn alot but i was happy enough, you don't miss what you've never had.

[Iwantone]

When times were more "normal" I was regularly getting pre-approved applications for credit cards, all I had to do was sign on the line. This I used to do and always told them I wanted a £5000 limit. In due course, the cards would arrive and I said that one day I would have £100,000 of credit available. I only ever used to use the cards to pay for holidays and that was for the protection if things went wrong. I spend using a debit card. I can report that, one by one, the card issuing companies threatened to withdraw the cards if I did not use them. One by one the cards were withdrawn and now I don't have a single one. I never did get into the £100,000 high roller band!

 

Harping back to my earlier posting in this thread. In a private enterprise company, as soon as something becomes genuinely unsustainable/unaffordable, it has to be removed/withdrawn. What's the alternative? I'll tell you the answer, a phone call to an administrator. That's the reason our final salary pension scheme had to go. For years we paid 8% and the company matched this with 8% and all was well. The it was realised that people were living longer and tending to retire earlier. The scheme had a shortfall and the company increased its contribution to 12%. The stock market ceased to perform as well as it had been doing and the company increase4d its contribution to 16%. Good old ex-chancellor, Mr Gordon Brown, bless him then decided to tax £6 billion a year out of the superanuation pots. This was the final straw. The actuaries told the company that even if they paid 20% the shemes shortfall would continue to grow, so, end of scheme.

 

You see these things much clearer in SMEs.

 

Steve

[coldel]

Clarkson! Saying what the majority think about the minority's actions. Albeit in Clarksons own special way.

 

http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16121698

[Chris`I]

Saw that on the BBC. I think its laughable that UNISON are now calling for his sacking. Quite frankly I think the head of UNISON should be sacked for making such stupid comments

[elfman]

I love how people took him seriously. More to the point though these days people who get pensions are very lucky. I myself am one of those lucky few who get a pention in a private sector company. I saw on BBC new North East last night, a young man of 21 who was striking, he'd been working in the public sector for 1 year, earned 16k and had a pension, but he was going to have to work for longer and his pension wouldn't be as good. Although he said he was greatfull for all of this he still was on strike, yet never seemed to think about the fact he had a job and a private pension, things that a lot of people in this country don't have at the minute.

 

On the topic of credit. I've always had cards, i use them for my insurance, getting a interest free card getting insurance and paying it off, always at 0%. Now this year has been horrid for the Zed, everything that can go wrong has gone wrong and without the funds in the bank. I've put these on my card but always knowing i can make the payments and if worse comes to worse i sell the car and pay it off. Now this year i'm going to be paying it off and not living quite as i'd like but i know that in a few months i'll be debt free and i know i have that restraint. Also my cards are always 0% playing the shuffle game.

 

Cards are usefull but just spending and spending on them and one day realising that you can't pay them off is just silly. i remember watching a program on BBC1 afaik and a woman paid just the minimum, on a 1.5k card with a 16.9% interest APR. it would cost her 5k and 16 years to pay off. Why would you ever do that?!

 

My 2p

[coldel]

I remember a headline in the papers about ten years ago, how a young humble nurse purchased a new Dodge Viper (£60k or something). They told how she lived on the cheap, buying cheap stuff and saved up the money to buy it. A real heart warming story...until the last paragraph where you found out that she saved something like £15k and borrowed the rest! What a joke. Was probably out there striking about pensions yesterday...

 

...that said I do know a lot of people are using credit cards to pay for everything now, but using the cashback on them (a couple of percent) they then just pay off the full amount end of each month without interest and gain the extra. They have self control though.

[Chris`I]

We use our Tesco CC for everything, but its paid off every month without fail. The APR is something ludicrous like 17-20% so would never use it to actually have credit after the month the purchases are made in. I does afford us a few nicities essentially for free.

[EH 370z]

At the risk of making a puerile comments on something very serious towards public sector workers.

I think the reason the private sector is so upset by this, is that the Public's are striking about a long term issue i.e. pensions, whereas in the Private sector most folks are concerned about their jobs on a daily basis, before we start talking about pensions etc.

I also find it hard to believe that the Public sector don’t follow simple business rule for provisions on NI and pensions?!?

I am however.... sympathetic isn’t the right word, but share equal annoyance, that the fat cats in the local governments, are paid so much, for from what I can see is to basically administer "Bungs" from contractors!

 

However I am also interested in, if you think you are going to finish work at 66, what you do propose to do with your remaining years, and how long do think your pension will last give the increasing mortality rates vs. the cost of living?

 

My wife (Paralegal) came up with a great retirement plan:

1. Basically you make a list of all the people you really hate.

2. Wait you have retired from work and all your money has run out and or you have provided what you can for your off spring, thusly avoiding the 40% death duty tax.

3. When all that’s done, get your list out.

4. Buy a high powered rifle.

5. Systemically kill everyone that’s upset you

6. Spend the rest of your life in a minimum security prison FOC, with some pocket money from HM Gov. for good behaviour!

Sounds daft for a cheap laugh, but it beats the sh!t out of freezing to death at 90 because you can’t afford to heat your poxy flat.

 

I am not a socialist, but the point I am trying to make is that fairness is one thing, a start to the problem. However the overwhelming problem with living in the UK is, whatever you try and do to "get ahead", is met with so much red tape and difficult whatever you try and do in any walk of life, is swimming up stream through custard. We live in a secret repressive state, which is valed in bullsh!t, and is sometimes just as scary as totalitarian governments like China IMO.

[wesmin]

I'm a little baffled by these free credit cards, any that i have been offered have told me that i transfer my existing balance to their card and get say for example 9 months interest free for the balance transferred, then in small print it says subject to a 3% transfer fee. So in fact your paying 3% for 9 months which in turn would represent an APR of something over 4%. Thats not free IMO

[AK350Z]

Clarkson! Saying what the majority think about the minority's actions. Albeit in Clarksons own special way.

 

http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16121698

 

Anyone would think he had a DVD out...

[Viper]

I remember a headline in the papers about ten years ago, how a young humble nurse purchased a new Dodge Viper (£60k or something). They told how she lived on the cheap, buying cheap stuff and saved up the money to buy it. A real heart warming story...until the last paragraph where you found out that she saved something like £15k and borrowed the rest! What a joke. Was probably out there striking about pensions yesterday...

 

...that said I do know a lot of people are using credit cards to pay for everything now, but using the cashback on them (a couple of percent) they then just pay off the full amount end of each month without interest and gain the extra. They have self control though.

 

 

the nurse is Nadine a good friend of mine who i met through the viper club, youll see her all over google with her viper she still has her GTS and does lots of track stuff with it, she brought it aged 23

 

the bit about 'probably' striking you couldnt of got it more wrong, Nadine still works long night shift hours and volunteers for any extra hours to fund hers cars and track habit

[coldel]

The striking comment was a flippant one, although throwing yourself into tens of thousands of pounds worth of debt for a car wasn't and although it sounds like she got away with it, there are lots of people who haven't - nice to hear she gets paid for her overtime, many people dont

[rtbiscuit]

nice to hear she gets paid for her overtime, many people dont

 

if i got paid for my overtime, i'd be driving a lambo