Adrian@TORQEN Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46535739 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) 6 hours ago, Maggz said: Or accept that all that was not what people voted for. I was asked elsewhere in this thread, how can i possibly know what people voted were thinking and i had used that to justify my argument, even though i only said perhaps thats why they voted that way. You have been quite vocal about why people voted to leave, its just conjecture. I was also told that made my argument invalid you do make some very good points and arguments about the benefits of the eu so i wouldnt dare say that to you 6 hours ago, Maggz said: What do you mean? The whole continent is scratching their heads trying to understand the leave vote. Saying we're staying would be more of a "finally you're making sense". People on the continent don't understand the decision and hate. And Hungary, and Poland are not Europe, just a part of it with very unique leadership at this moment. Simply untrue, France with LePen was angling towards their own referendum and she had quite a following and plenty of mutterings coming from Italy, Poland and others about having their own referendum. Edited December 12, 2018 by Jetpilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I can imagine there is excitement and some feeling of 'she had it coming' but this does I think throw us even more into a hugely damaging no exit deal scenario. I don't think its a done deal though, I think there will be MPs there that know the best course of action is to get a deal and then dump TM after than to start messing around sorting out the government leadership and lurch into a no deal which then potentially cripples the country. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Well we have had pretty much the whole cabinet publicly say they will support her, whether they do in the private vote or not is of course another matter. Raab is bookies favourite to replace her if she loses the vote - although his stance has always been that he wants a different deal, given the EU have already said its this or nothing we are treading a path to no deal there. I see JRM again ruling himself out for running for it, the chief protagonist voicing constant opposition to the governments Brexit course, a man who constantly says it can be done another way, who says we hold all the cards, BUT when it comes to stepping into a position where he has to actually do it, he bottles it. If there is a coward in the house, it is him. One potential outcome of May winning the vote tonight is that it would put him back in his box for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 41 minutes ago, coldel said: I see JRM again ruling himself out for running for it, the chief protagonist voicing constant opposition to the governments Brexit course, a man who constantly says it can be done another way, who says we hold all the cards, BUT when it comes to stepping into a position where he has to actually do it, he bottles it Exactly, Farage is the same too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Seems like his box is being set up for him already - Ellwood is a decent chap as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Over 100 public tweets/comments/posts on support for May. Again how people actually vote is another matter but if she gets through this vote, will the Tory party wholeheartedly support her? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 PMQs at midday, I wonder if JC will actually say something impactful for once! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 1 hour ago, coldel said: Over 100 public tweets/comments/posts on support for May. Again how people actually vote is another matter but if she gets through this vote, will the Tory party wholeheartedly support her? I think the question has to be asked, why would she want the job, it surely has to be the most challenging time to be a pm since probably the world wars, but she is hanging in there, much respect, i think i would probably have said, f*ck the lot of ya a long time ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Yeah I know, in fact you wonder why anyone would want to step in? Given the divisions in the party there are people supporting her, if we have a hard brexiteer come in it will not unite the party, it will still retain divisions and in fighting. She has done a pretty good job in the PMQs, as usual Corbyn has fluffed his lines. How anyone could imagine Corbyn negotiating Brexit for us is beyond me, the guy is hapless and so easy to manipulate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Govt spokesperson "This isnt about who leads us into the next election, its about whether it makes sense to change leaders during brexit negotiations" which for me would indicate that she will step down once brexit is done. Also seems like publicly anyway 158 voices of support have been recorded, if they turn in to action tonight she stays, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I'm a bit puzzled on the confidence vote happening today. Didn't the tories have a vote on TM back in 2016 when she became PM? Did they just realise that all her promises in the speeches outside No 10, Lancaster House etc were just lies and they want a new vote now? Having a "second vote" now will surely "undermine democracy", create more "division", why can't they "just get over it"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Most have, a minority (the ERG and Corbyn) cannot because they do not have the interests of Leave at the heart of their argument. What would be funny is if TM got 52% of the vote tonight... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Have you lot seen the news today? Undemocracy wasn’t a thing until quite recently and now you can’t move for undemocracy! They’re only going to have a second vote on who’s going to be leader of the Conservative party, under the flimsiest of pretences. Turns out they just don’t like the vote they did a couple of years ago, simply because things haven’t transpired as promised. #itsadisgrace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 I guess as a Labour supporter you are all to familiar with no confidence votes against your leader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, SuperStu said: Have you lot seen the news today? Undemocracy wasn’t a thing until quite recently and now you can’t move for undemocracy! They’re only going to have a second vote on who’s going to be leader of the Conservative party, under the flimsiest of pretences. Turns out they just don’t like the vote they did a couple of years ago, simply because things haven’t transpired as promised. #itsadisgrace There are a number of ironic things going on mate... ...to be fair though this is all constitutional and a PM that has been found in contempt of parliament is not a strong position to lead the party. What is fundamentally wrong is that the no confidence letters have been put in today. MPs tell TM that the backstop wont allow the deal to go through the vote, so she defers it to go and achieve what she can with the EU to clarify it. Suddenly that's wrong too, yes she should have done it earlier but, what else would she have done? If she wins handsomely tonight then that is a mandate to tell JRM etc. to shut the **** up and let the government govern. Their fairy land completely unachievable idea on brexit has done nothing but strengthen the EU and weaken our position. Corbyn, well less said really the guy is hopeless. He shouted out in PMQs that the house get a vote on the deal, which they will do once the bits he has personally complained about are clarified with the EU. He shouted about Labour going and doing a better deal with the EU despite Merkel this morning saying its not happening. Despite Tusk and Barnier saying the same. Macron said the same. There is no option to do another deal I am not sure why Corbyn cannot understand this simple fact. Oh, he does, but he doesnt care he just wants the keys to number 10 whatever happens after that he will worry about down the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 I reckon Corbyn wants to become PM and then call for a 2nd referendum or revoke article 50. I suppose he's been advised no to mention anything about cancelling Brexit until he has his position secured. #TotalMess Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 no sh*t As JRM told the labour representative at the brexit debate, if you want to be in government, win an election Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Adrian@TORQEN said: I reckon Corbyn wants to become PM and then call for a 2nd referendum or revoke article 50. I suppose he's been advised no to mention anything about cancelling Brexit until he has his position secured. #TotalMess His agenda is simple, he wanted the vote to go ahead so it would lose and ultimately lead to a GE with a Tory party in disarray. It was his best shot at getting in to number 10, would have even taken it in a coalition. This has completely changed that plan, in fact if May wins it means she is challenge free for 12 months, she has time to go speak with the EU, It creates a mandate for the Tory party to line up more behind May for Brexit and gives the Tories time to replace May post brexit with a new leader who would have less baggage. None of his goals considers the welfare of the UK...ultimately he wants a customs union and close ties anyway and TM called that out in the PMQs. Edited December 12, 2018 by coldel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 is anyone else fed up that this isn't about the best for the country its about scoring points in parliament? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Ironically, TM is one of the only people you could argue is doing this for the country. She refuses another referendum, she is trying to get a deal, she is literally doing the worst job in politics right now and knows even if she survives tonight she wont be leader at the next general election. But yes, Corbyn has nothing but power in his mind and could not give two hoots about the country. He has no plan, no approach, cannot answer questions challenging his comments on brexit the guy is slime. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, coldel said: Ironically, TM is one of the only people you could argue is doing this for the country. She refuses another referendum, she is trying to get a deal, she is literally doing the worst job in politics right now and knows even if she survives tonight she wont be leader at the next general election. But yes, Corbyn has nothing but power in his mind and could not give two hoots about the country. He has no plan, no approach, cannot answer questions challenging his comments on brexit the guy is slime. Oh fully agree, but seems stupid if your (Torie Mp) party is in control to make a @*!# storm of it all so your party gets pushed out at the next GE. Edited December 12, 2018 by StevoD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Just now, StevoD said: Oh fully agree, but seems stupid if your party is in control to make a @*!# storm of it all so your party gets pushed out at the next GE. Hence the message from Ellwood earlier in the day when JRM tweeted 'time for a new leader' - basically castigated him about his character and his disloyalty. JRM and DD have done nothing but discredit the process since it was clear their vision was totally unimplementable. TM had to come in and sort the catastrophic mess they created in July this year to get to a deal, we needed a deal, something, DD did nothing but alienate us from our biggest trading partner. Since then JRM and DD have been nothing but spiteful children who have had their rattles taken away...hopefully tonight can shut the pair of them up for a bit so the government can focus on getting the deal we need. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggz Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 8 hours ago, Jetpilot said: Simply untrue, France with LePen was angling towards their own referendum and she had quite a following and plenty of mutterings coming from Italy, Poland and others about having their own referendum. Context is needed here. LePen is a leader of a hard right, racist party, which she is trying desperately to show as a moderate one. Google about her dad, who started it. She's been funded by Russia for years, not even a secret. Any party which wants to break up the union gets money from Ruskies. Italy and their 5 star movement is even worse, but I really don't want to suffocate everyone with my walls of text, it would need to be a totally separate thread, although I did mention Italy in a lengthy post. Those two should in my honest opinion not be used as any indication of European countries, as they represent a very small minority of pi**ed off right wing, anti immigration, EU fund guzzling communities/parties. Poland tho, is a mistery to me as they're split heavily internally between people wanting their president to become an autocrat and those that want him hanged. Same in Hungary with Orban. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATTAK Z Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 29 minutes ago, coldel said: ...................... But yes, Corbyn has nothing but power in his mind and could not give two hoots about the country. He has no plan, no approach, cannot answer questions challenging his comments on brexit the guy is slime. And you haven't even started on the others who would be in government under Corbyn ... God help us if that happens, with a Foreign Secretary who can't add up and an Education Secretary who is uneducated ... maybe David Miliband (who is quite a good bloke IMO - I've met him) will return to lead and I will win some money on a bet I made years ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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