Jay84 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Very good point Stevo, and it would have been the same on London bridge unfortunately. You can't prepare for that type of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Do the terrorist really care if he trained for a week or 10 years? no. If it affects how well they can carry out whatever their intentions are, then yes. as above there not deterred by armed police and they have a wish to die nothing will deter them I think you are confusing "deter" with "scare". If im putting money on a guy with his hands and a guy with a semi automatic rifle or a bomb i know where my money is going So all that training and information won't help identify the target, aid armed police, or mitigate losses?? Right around the corner is to late if they have slashed up people, this isnt a Call of Duty with a timer and a goal the point you know they are a terroist is when the @*!# has already started at that point its to late. I'll ask again, so why even bother having a police force at all if they can't prevent all murders. You seem to have a twisted mindset that if 1 person dies it doesn't matter if another 50 die. Unfortunately in reality the only way to stop them is to to stop them before they even start. There is nothing more we can do if they reach a stage of committing an attack See above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Yeah we can call them the Orwells. I agree with that part in TT's idea, but if its what signs to look out for, its knowledge we should all be given. And I its a very valid point not all things can be preempted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) I read his point as we have a police force in place, we should look to invest in that. An influx of part time CSO's would cost a lot less. A switched on citizenship who know what signs to look for and can call the police etc earlier than disaster time, is free, allows us to feel helpful and preventative. The title is irrelevant, the designated task is what matters. I thought part of TT's suggestion was to teach people what to look out for? However, it also involved giving people the training and equipment to better deal with a situation if necessary. Which is my point that through citizen knowledge, which we can all get through adverts, pamphlets, bus shelter posters etc. We all have a phone, if we all know what to look for we can make the calls hopefully before disaster strikes. Noone needs to confront them but we can call the already trained people who will. But why not have people specifically on the look out? I don't know about you, but I am not generally on the look out for terrorists... And why not give more people that training? Guy walks into a Bar..............Boooom Bit late for you and your mate to profile him Regarding the video i posted above. the point you know thats a terroist attack is once it has commence. Also how do you train people on what to look out for them you cant? What you train people to look out for middle eastern men with suit cases you looking straight out for a racism claim, or are suspicious of any car with a rental sticker on it now? Also did it occur that you release the info on what to look out for they will change there approach and do it the way oppersite to what your telling people to look for? You dont train people how to look for terrorism you need to train people on how to stay safe in an attack or how to evacuate an attack. There is enough media from London to show people where more than happy to film it than run Edited June 7, 2017 by StevoD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Yeah we can call them the Orwells. I agree with that part in TT's idea, but if its what signs to look out for, its knowledge we should all be given. And I its a very valid point not all things can be preempted. But the problem you get is similar to when people look up their symptoms on the internet and conclude they have bubonic plague. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 OK so - backtracking, yes Strudul it is possible and appreciate your points to show that but as clear as day its got no scale, no feasibility, no practical laydown, no way it can be proved right now it would improve anything in terms of reducing murder by terrorists or improve over what the police do already. So why we have wasted pages of debate on one of the most daft ideas out there, only on 350z-uk.com! As for being more aware, I am not sure I know what that means - maybe some other people who commute into London each day through the hotspots like I do can give a view also as to how you behave. I for one, am a very observant guy, but I dont walk into work eyeing up every person that walks by me, even if I do what do I do? Call in 5 innocent people to the police each day? I am not sure what the practicalities of this are? I saw plenty of people today of different cultures, colours, carrying all manner of bags and rucksacks, what exactly am I calling in? If I see a transit drive past with a middle eastern guy driving it, do I radio it in? Most of these incidents happen instantly, there is from what I can see no pre-warning that would be visible - one second they are just another person driving past, the next something explodes or the transit mounts the pavement. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Stevo, you're right of course, i guess in my head I kinda forgot that during the cold war we advised people to hide under a table during nuclear attack. Run Hide and Tell is the best advise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Guy walks into a Bar..............Boooom Bit late for you and your mate to profile him Regarding the video i posted above. the point you know thats a terroist attack is once it has commence. Also how do you train people on what to look out for them you cant? What you train people to look out for middle eastern men with suit cases you looking straight out for a racism claim, or are suspicious of any car with a rental sticker on it now? Also did it occur that you release the info on what to look out for they will change there approach and do it they way different to what your telling people to look for? You dont train people how to look for terrorism you need to train people on how to stay safe in an attack or how to evacuate an attack. There is enough media from London to show people where more than happy to film it than run As I said, some things can't be prevented, but you keep avoiding my question as to why we even bother having a police force to deal with terrorism at all if it's always too late.... It was my understanding that many of these terrorist attacks were conducted by people known to the police. Part of the reason for keeping personal information of potential terrorists limited to these specialised volunteer groups was to prevent: 1) Terrorists knowing 2) Random violent members of the public going round beating them up Knowing how to stay safe in an attack is a bit useless when you've already been blown up... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 OK so - backtracking, yes Strudul it is possible and appreciate your points to show that but as clear as day its got no scale, no feasibility, no practical laydown, no way it can be proved right now it would improve anything in terms of reducing murder by terrorists or improve over what the police do already. So why we have wasted pages of debate on one of the most daft ideas out there, only on 350z-uk.com! As for being more aware, I am not sure I know what that means - maybe some other people who commute into London each day through the hotspots like I do can give a view also as to how you behave. I for one, am a very observant guy, but I dont walk into work eyeing up every person that walks by me, even if I do what do I do? Call in 5 innocent people to the police each day? I am not sure what the practicalities of this are? I saw plenty of people today of different cultures, colours, carrying all manner of bags and rucksacks, what exactly am I calling in? If I see a transit drive past with a middle eastern guy driving it, do I radio it in? Most of these incidents happen instantly, there is from what I can see no pre-warning that would be visible - one second they are just another person driving past, the next something explodes or the transit mounts the pavement. It's not even my point, I don't support it or think it's a good idea. All I did way deny the impossibility of it. I think I covered responses to the rest in previous posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Do the terrorist really care if he trained for a week or 10 years? no. If it affects how well they can carry out whatever their intentions are, then yes. How will it effect it you sitting in a course for 6 months isnt going to stop a transit full of knife wielding terroists I think you are confusing "deter" with "scare". call it what you want these people have gone out on that day to die nothing can deter that So all that training and information won't help identify the target, aid armed police, or mitigate losses? yea the target is the transit doing 70mph along the pathway, i dont think anyone needs training on thats probably a good point to call it in? Do you really think Margret whose on a day out with her friends is going to go is this normal and carry on their day? the reason the london attack was stopped so fast was multle members of public called it in as it happened. how would spending thousands help improve that? I'll ask again, so why even bother having a police force at all if they can't prevent all murders. You seem to have a twisted mindset that if 1 person dies it doesn't matter if another 50 die. No you have the twister mind that 1 life is worth less than 50, if 1 person dies its fine aslong as 50 live ??, you will notice my theme here is to stop it before it gets to the point of them going out to carry out the attack not a case of lets jump them when we see something dodgy. and that level of intelligence and skill isnt going to be gained from putting guys with combat/profiling training on a patrol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 You cannot and will not ever eradicate terrorism in the current form using current methods. You will not do it by force at all. As has been said, a billion more police on the streets armed to the teeth with ninja moves would not have prevented either Manchester or London. Is it impossible to have a Super Civvy team? No. Would it be useless and a massive waste of funds? Yes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 You could argue anything is possible therefore every debate is valid. Theres a tiny minute possibility I could drive a Zed across all the oceans in the world on skis but would expect the response to be that its a stupid idea and I wouldn't continue to debate it. As I said right up top the scalability and impact this would have if it had say £5bn thrown at it to make it work would be nigh on stupid and a waste of money and have no impact. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 ...anyway I have to set off for home now - involves walking across Waterloo bridge. I will of course eye up every non white person with suspicion, pull people back from the edge of the pavement every time a transit passes by and probably call in about 7 middle eastern looking people who are carrying rucksacks then safely make my way onto my train feeling a sense of worth to the community for saving so many lives. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 How will it effect it you sitting in a course for 6 months isnt going to stop a transit full of knife wielding terroists That's one incident that as I've said, nobody can really prevent, however, there are other ways that can be prevented. call it what you want these people have gone out on that day to die nothing can deter that You can deter them from targeting specific places / people by reducing the ease of doing so. yea the target is the transit doing 70mph along the pathway, i dont think anyone needs training on thats probably a good point to call it in? Do you really think Margret whose on a day out with her friends is going to go is this normal and carry on their day? the reason the london attack was stopped so fast was multle members of public called it in as it happened. how would spending thousands help improve that? Again, you're getting hung up on 1 example. No you have the twister mind that 1 life is worth less than 50, if 1 person dies its fine aslong as 50 live ??, you will notice my theme here is to stop it before it gets to the point of them going out to carry out the attack not a case of lets jump them when we see something dodgy. and that level of intelligence and skill isnt going to be gained from putting guys with combat/profiling training on a patrol Lol what? Yes, 50 lives are more valuable than one. No it's not fine if 1 person dies, but it's better than 50. I'm not sure how can you be so indifferent to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) ...anyway I have to set off for home now - involves walking across Waterloo bridge. I will of course eye up every non white person with suspicion, pull people back from the edge of the pavement every time a transit passes by and probably call in about 7 middle eastern looking people who are carrying rucksacks then safely make my way onto my train feeling a sense of worth to the community for saving so many lives. Wasn't quite what I had in mind, but you make a good point. Edited June 7, 2017 by Jay84 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 No I was being flippant and apologise! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 You could argue anything is possible therefore every debate is valid. Theres a tiny minute possibility I could drive a Zed across all the oceans in the world on skis but would expect the response to be that its a stupid idea and I wouldn't continue to debate it. As I said right up top the scalability and impact this would have if it had say £5bn thrown at it to make it work would be nigh on stupid and a waste of money and have no impact. But there is the chance that a terrorist whips out a knife, starts slashing, and one of the super civvy team is there and tasers him before he can do any harm. It's not going to stop a van, or a bomb, but neither are the police... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 You could argue anything is possible therefore every debate is valid. Theres a tiny minute possibility I could drive a Zed across all the oceans in the world on skis but would expect the response to be that its a stupid idea and I wouldn't continue to debate it. As I said right up top the scalability and impact this would have if it had say £5bn thrown at it to make it work would be nigh on stupid and a waste of money and have no impact. But there is the chance that a terrorist whips out a knife, starts slashing, and one of the super civvy team is there and tasers him before he can do any harm. It's not going to stop a van, or a bomb, but neither are the police... OK now I know you are stretching it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 OK now I know you are stretching it! It's always going to be a case of right place right time. However, the more people you have, the higher the chance of it occurring is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 You could argue anything is possible therefore every debate is valid. Theres a tiny minute possibility I could drive a Zed across all the oceans in the world on skis but would expect the response to be that its a stupid idea and I wouldn't continue to debate it. As I said right up top the scalability and impact this would have if it had say £5bn thrown at it to make it work would be nigh on stupid and a waste of money and have no impact. But there is the chance that a terrorist whips out a knife, starts slashing, and one of the super civvy team is there and tasers him before he can do any harm. It's not going to stop a van, or a bomb, but neither are the police... Or or hear me out this is a bit out there but humor me maybe there is a police officer there. I know I know it's a bit mental to think we can employee police to do this but I think it could just work. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Or or hear me out this is a bit out there but humor me maybe there is a police officer there. I know I know it's a bit mental to think we can employee police to do this but I think it could just work. Repeating myself once again... More people = more chance of being in the right place at the right time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevoD Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 Or or hear me out this is a bit out there but humor me maybe there is a police officer there. I know I know it's a bit mental to think we can employee police to do this but I think it could just work. Repeating myself once again... More people = more chance of being in the right place at the right time. So basically you plan to help the police force out is an unpaid police force ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aashenfox Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 (edited) If a decent proportion of the 'responsible' population, carried tazers, this kind of attack would have been reduced to just the run over victims and maybe one dead on the street. Very effective show stoppers and very rarely lethal. Taze, and run. You can't deny the logic in that. Is it practical? Dunno, maybe, if these attacks get more frequent, yes, definitely. Would tazer related incidents unrelated to terrorism increase? Of course, but as stated, they are very rarely lethal. Edited June 7, 2017 by Aashenfox 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strudul Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 So basically you plan to help the police force out is an unpaid police force ? That is what the word volunteer usually means... Not sure how many times I have to keep pointing out that it's not my plan and I don't think it's a good idea though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 There is so much right place right time involved here, that even with super civvy squad, odds are a policeman is still going to be the closest attendee, unless the super civvies outnumber the police. In which case it becomes like the nationalist army in Ukraine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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