Jetpilot Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Thanks Codel, interest to hear your views, i didnt expect you to agree of course, but appreciate an alternative to some factual points/view. Its an interesting debate about the Scottish vote, i wonder if the Scots would have voted to stay in the UK if we had said no to any points regarding devolution. So could we not have some devolution from the EU, make some of our choices rather than have to accept what is put forward by the EU? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 To assume the worst will happen and allow yourself to be swayed by fear is a little bit cowardly imo but all we see is scare stories about what would happen if we leave or if we stay To assume that everything will be absolutely fine is either naivety, or stupidity. Yes, I can see that things *might* be better after we leave, after a period of many years, but I can't see how you can honestly believe there will not be a very real cost to your pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian@TORQEN Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 I love this topic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted February 25, 2016 Author Share Posted February 25, 2016 (edited) It is a worry for some but we are a huge importer from the EU and that is unlikley change but we live in a much more global market than we did when we signed up and there are options for us to import from countries that we couldnt before. There is a great deal of unanswered questions about staying also To assume the worst will happen and allow yourself to be swayed by fear is a little bit cowardly imo but all we see is scare stories about what would happen if we leave or if we stay Its not fear, its understanding the reality of how we currently work as a trading partner in the EU.Its about making an informed decision. Are you being a coward if before you bought a car you looked into the history, understood as much about the car as you can, checked it over with an expert before you stumped up your cash - would a braver person stomp across the forecourt and slap ten grand on the table and swipe the keys away without even looking at it? Edited February 25, 2016 by coldel 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GappySmeg Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 (edited) As I understand it, we currently benefit greatly from the fact our Trade Agreements are negotiated by the EU... that is to say, we don't trade with USA as UK, we trade with USA as EU. So a scenario outlined to me, is that in this country we have many high-skilled, high paid, high technology jobs, providing products for export, that other nations are jealous of (think our F1 industries, banking/finance industries, Rolls Royce). Countries (e.g. USA, China) would love to make our services/products uncompetitive, by applying punitive charges/rates... but they cant because they need good terms with the EU due to the huge purchasing power the EU has. With us outside the EU and having to negotiate for ourselves, suddenly we don't have anywhere near the purchasing power... as coldel says, "we need them more than they need us". So, in order to drive on their own version of these highly-desirable jobs, they make our products/services less competitive because they can. So we lose some of our most highly-paid industries and jobs. Edited February 25, 2016 by GappySmeg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted February 25, 2016 Author Share Posted February 25, 2016 Thanks Codel, interest to hear your views, i didnt expect you to agree of course, but appreciate an alternative to some factual points/view. Its an interesting debate about the Scottish vote, i wonder if the Scots would have voted to stay in the UK if we had said no to any points regarding devolution. So could we not have some devolution from the EU, make some of our choices rather than have to accept what is put forward by the EU? Ha! I actually agree with some parts of the article, but I was really just trying to add some balance to it For reference, I have clicked Unsure on my poll but swerving towards staying until I see something concrete from the Leave campaign that says what business model they are going to adopt (i.e. bi-lateral like the Swiss, Customs Union like Turkey or just a Free Trade Agreement (which I would put my money on if we left) etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargara Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 (edited) Everyone seems very fixated on Trade in this topic, I feel its very short sighted to focus so narrowly on 1 aspect of EU membership. This is afterall a question of democracy at its roots. I object hugely to us voting and electing leaders/parties and then having mandates come down from the EU overlords. I didn't vote for them and I have no means of showing my objection by not voting for them next time like I could if it was Tory/Labour for example. Edited February 26, 2016 by Sargara 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LloydZee Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 I must admit I voted leave on here, but I need more details and lots of research before I can cast my vote in June. Such a tough decision for everyone. The only real benefit I can see from leaving the EU is the immigration/border benefits. Tough choice!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Everyone seems very fixated on Trade in this topic, I feel its very short sighted to focus so narrowly on 1 aspect of EU membership. This is afterall a question of democracy at its roots. I object hugely to us voting and electing leaders/parties and then having mandates come down from the EU overlords. I didn't vote for them and I have no means of showing my objection by not voting for them next time like I could if it was Tory/Labour for example. You do, there are European elections you can vote in. This idea that unelected beaurocats pass policy is one of the great myths. The commission write policy, but elected people vote on it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Just had the exact same conversation with someone else on another forum. It really is no different to how things are run now in this country when it comes to elections, it's just on a greater scale. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted February 26, 2016 Author Share Posted February 26, 2016 Everyone seems very fixated on Trade in this topic, I feel its very short sighted to focus so narrowly on 1 aspect of EU membership. This is afterall a question of democracy at its roots. I object hugely to us voting and electing leaders/parties and then having mandates come down from the EU overlords. I didn't vote for them and I have no means of showing my objection by not voting for them next time like I could if it was Tory/Labour for example. Its not a fixation, its something which most people voting to leave do not seem to be considering but is the one thing that is most likely to have the biggest impact on individual lives if we do leave. I see your point above (although you can vote), but that is part of the price you pay to be in a more powerful trading position. To make a large trading group made up of different economies work, you need consistent rules across the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Coldel for EU president. I do business with a number of countries in the EU and even with free trade its not easy ......... but supplying into Russia, Turkey, even the US is incredibly more complex and risky and therefore more expensive, and as Gappysmeg says we would immediately become uncompetitive and this would be disastrous for us as a country. Remember, we dont have much in the way of natural resources, we dont do production and we dont have the space for agriculture - our GDP is mostly made up of Finance and Services and both are very dependent on being financially competitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted February 26, 2016 Author Share Posted February 26, 2016 Coldel for EU president. I do business with a number of countries in the EU and even with free trade its not easy ......... but supplying into Russia, Turkey, even the US is incredibly more complex and risky and therefore more expensive, and as Gappysmeg says we would immediately become uncompetitive and this would be disastrous for us as a country. Remember, we dont have much in the way of natural resources, we dont do production and we dont have the space for agriculture - our GDP is mostly made up of Finance and Services and both are very dependent on being financially competitive. Ha, I would be too busy polishing my car mate! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Just had the exact same conversation with someone else on another forum. It really is no different to how things are run now in this country when it comes to elections, it's just on a greater scale. Its a valid point and if say a party i hadnt voted for got in, i would have to like it or lump it, but, in essence i will have to faith (broadly speaking) that they will do what they think is the best for the UK, not what the EU parliament decides is the best for the EU or its own specific country, what may suit them, may not suit us. As elsewhere, there has to be a reason the elected British mps voted against these 576 proposals. Right or wrong, fair or not, i would prefer to have the government the UK population elected deciding what rules and regs it wants to enforce, rather than the EU parliament, with a load of mp's from other countries we didnt elect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 But what if what is best for us is actually what the EU tells us, and we're just being stubborn for the sake of it? For example, tighter controls on banking or corporations making tiny tax contributions. Perhaps the UK might want it to protect our precious banking businesses, but would it not be better for all if there were tighter regs? It's just one example, but it's a recent and very true one. To put it closer to home, and this depends on where you sit on this one, but it's like Labour voting to get rid of Trident but the Tories wanting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 I am not going to disagree, but its all maybes, maybe our mps voted for tighter banking (do you know without looking it up?), there has to be a reason why our elected mp's voted against these 576 rules and regs and the point still stands, valid to you or not, its one of the points raised by the leave crew. Its nothing like Labour wanting to get rid of Trident and Tories wanting to keep it, as that is the government that the majority of the UK voted in, our elected government making a choice, not some mps we probably dont even know the name of telling our elected government what they can and cant do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 We did vote against tighter banking controls, yes. I actually agree with that, but I do understand that a lot of people in this country don't, which is fair enough. The majority of people didn't vote Conservative though, but that's a whole different ball game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 You know what i mean They held a majority based on our voting system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Which is how the EU works too. The majority does what they believe is right for the majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Exactly and exactly one of the reasons why this referendum is taking place, because "some" (still the majority on here) dont want a majority that absolutely no one voted for deciding whats best for us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Exactly and exactly one of the reasons why this referendum is taking place, because "some" (still the majority on here) dont want a majority that absolutely no one voted for deciding whats best for us Dont ever ask about the House of Lords then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Exactly and exactly one of the reasons why this referendum is taking place, because "some" (still the majority on here) dont want a majority that absolutely no one voted for deciding whats best for us But you already have that, so nothing at all will change in that regard. I'm not sure why we keep going round in circles on that fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 So who did you vote for in the European parliament? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 (edited) So who did you vote for in the European parliament? Oooh this is a leading question, should be fun. I voted against Nick Griffin (for Green) and he lost his seat. Democracy in action! Edited February 26, 2016 by SuperStu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted February 26, 2016 Share Posted February 26, 2016 Conservative candidate round here as Robert Sturdy, the outgoing feller helped me out a couple of times and I liked Conservative manifesto best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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