MarkW Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Has anyone got any suggestions on where to go to get some (preferably free) initial advice on employment law? Not mentioning any names I have worked for the same UK company for over16 years as an IT Manager. We were taken over 2 years ago by a large international company and it is now obvious that along with several others, I do not have a future here. I am still needed for the next 6-12 months, and we have been told after that if there are no opportunities we will get redundancy - which is fine with me as I should get a resonable pay off. The problem is that it seems they are trying to put us in a position which forces us to leave - thus not paying redundancy. The biggest issue is removing our car allowance. I have had a company car /car allowance for the last 16 years and they talking of removing it at the end of the year as my grade and job role doesnt justify it. My grade and role dont justify it because they have changed it. Over half my previous responsibilities have been taken from me. Is there a case here for constructive dismissal? Part of me just wants to leave now (I am looking), but it makes financial sense to stay and take redundancy. I know they have 'forced out' other managers in the company, some of which have taken them to tribunal and won. In all my career, I have never had a dispute with any employee, but its not pleasant being trodden on and dont feel like I should let them get away with it. Any legal people out there? Do I have a case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebized Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I know they have 'forced out' other managers in the company, some of which have taken them to tribunal and won. I am no expert, but what you are describing is all too familiar. Noting what you say about others in the company have been successful at their tribunals is it worth contacting them for contacts/tips etc? I am a firm believer in not 're-inventing the wheel' it is not necessary. Whatever legal help they got could be invaluable for you, being placed in a similar position. I presume, as you have not mentioned it, there is no 'union' or other body you suscribe to that you could use to help? Anyway good luck and I wish you well in what is an awful situation when you have given loyal service for so long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIXXERUK Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 I know they have 'forced out' other managers in the company, some of which have taken them to tribunal and won. I am no expert, but what you are describing is all too familiar. Noting what you say about others in the company have been successful at their tribunals is it worth contacting them for contacts/tips etc? I am a firm believer in not 're-inventing the wheel' it is not necessary. Whatever legal help they got could be invaluable for you, being placed in a similar position. I presume, as you have not mentioned it, there is no 'union' or other body you suscribe to that you could use to help? Anyway good luck and I wish you well in what is an awful situation when you have given loyal service for so long. +1 I would also advise that from this point you should catalogue everything, event, date, names this is very very common now you may have a case for constructive dismissal but you should get professional advise, is there anyone in a similar position ? you should push them to seek advice that way you get it free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbs Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Mark, I am not a lawyer but I would have thought it would be worth having a chat with a solicitor who deals with employment law, most reasonable size practices have one, would probably not cost much and if they thought you had a case would probably work on the basis of no fee but a % of any settlement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sl114 Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Mark - my friends Mum is a lawyer and specialises in employment law, would you like me to pass on your details and see if she is willing to take on the case and provide you with some details? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesterfield Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 The problem is that it seems they are trying to put us in a position which forces us to leave - thus not paying redundancy. The biggest issue is removing our car allowance. I have had a company car /car allowance for the last 16 years and they talking of removing it at the end of the year as my grade and job role doesnt justify it. My grade and role dont justify it because they have changed it. Over half my previous responsibilities have been taken from me. Is there a case here for constructive dismissal? Sounds very much like the company are on thin ice for constructive dismissal as by changing the status quo after 16 years is very much making alterations to your implied terms and conditions. Changing implied working responsibilities and then using these changes as justification for removal of a company benefit I would think is on VERY thin ice indeed. We have access to employment law professionals as part of an agreement for our company I may be able to get an answer from them, will try and see if I can get any word out of them on a "hypothetical situation" basis tomorrow. You may also be able to find some law firm that will offer a half hour free consultation before they will state whether you have a case or not (in the hope they will get the job of undertaking it for you if you do). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zedrush Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 http://www.acas.org.uk/ HELPLINE 08457 47 47 47 will let you know where you stand and its free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndySpak Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 Hi Mark, Firstly, let me say that I sympathise with you having been through something similar a few years ago with a previous employer. A word of warning though, Constuctive Dismissal is one of the hardest things to prove and also one of the hardest things to make a claim worthwhile. I'll explain why... 1. You can't claim for damages, only what you can prove is a legitimate loss. The tribunal panel will also expect you to mitigate your losses too so if you leave, start a Constructive Dismissal claim and get a better paid job, you won't get anything in the way of a pay off. If you get a slightly lower paid job, you can claim the difference. If you don't get a job at all, you can legitimately claim for full loss of earnings but the panel will want to see evidence that you have tried to get another job but have been unsuccessful. If you are an IT professional, I think it will be tough to get away with this one as there are lots of IT jobs advertised all the time. 2. The legal costs of an employment tribunal can not be claimed from the losing party (unless there are exceptional circumstances). This might seem unfair but its there to protect you in case you lose. Your employer can probably afford £10K for their solicitor if they lose but can you afford the same? Also, if it goes far enough that you do end up at a tribunal, it will probably cost you about £10K just for yourself even if you win so you better make sure your claim amount justifies it. 3. Its a really stressful time and will probably take 9-12 months to get resolved (if it goes all the way to tribunal). I was at a point where I could only justify £8000 in losses but I had a legal bill of £5,700 and this was before the tribunal had started. If it had gone to tribunal and I won I would have been lucky to come away in the black. If I had lost I would have been about £8K down. Fortuantely we settled at 5pm the day before the tribunal started so I was up a lttle bit but if I'd known the hassle and stress I was going to go through to get approximately £2500 I don't think I would have bothered. If you are dead certain that you want to go ahead with it then you must keep a record of everything that you think would be useful, as Gixxer has said. The other thing you must do is go through your company's formal greivance procedure. If you leave and go to tribunal claiming Constructive dismissal but did not fully exhaust the grievance procedure you will lose immediately. Your employer will claim that if you had followed the procedure they would have sorted things out (even if you know deep down they wouldn't have done, it will be too late then). Ask HR for a copy of the Company's Greivance Procedure (if they don't have one or can't produce it in a timely manner this is good news for you). This is likely to involve the following sort of stuff... 1. Raise your concerns verbally with your line manager. 2. Await his/her response. 3. If issue is still not resolved, put your issues in writing to your line manager and submit a copy to HR. 4. Escalate/appeal to your manager's line manager in writing (copying in HR who will probably be managing the process by now). 5. At this point if it can't be resloved, you have to either like it or take things legal. When I reached this point, I resigned immediately on the grounds of Constrctive dismissal (keep your resiganation letter in your jacket pocket when you have your appeal meeting) . I would recommend asking if the audio at the meetings can be recorded as well as asking HR to minute them. Make sure you keep a copy of the audio yourself, do not trust the company to hold on to it. If you get to the point where you want to make a deal, or at least entertain the idea, always start your letters or the conversations by stating that the discussion is "Without Prejudice". This will prevent them from being able to make it look like you were just looking to profit from the situation if it gets to a tribunal. I'm not a solicitor, I'm a cowboy salesperson really but this consumed my life 3 years ago so hopefully its advice that will be worthwhile. Just don't come chasing me if it all goes pear-shaped! Good luck EDIT: If you are going to appoint a law firm, don't go cheap. Find out who your employer uses and use a simlar sized firm. The solictors involved will likely know each other and if you have a respected firm working on your behalf they are less likely to get pushed about by a senior partner at your employers lawyers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lomoto Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 http://www.acas.org.uk/ HELPLINE 08457 47 47 47 will let you know where you stand and its free +1 yes get in touch with them , I have been on the other side of the fence years ago with one of my employees, and these B****ds ran me ragged even the guy in question had no legitimate claim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mugwump Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 What Andy said is great advice from my experience. Also phone your local citizens advice, they are not as qualified but can certainly help in the assessment of the case and again the advice is free. The point about damages being limited as Andy wrote is really important, you can only claim for your material loss not all "damages", it is also capped. The only exception is if you have been discriminated against where the damages are then unlimited on the basis of Sex, Race etc. I also know its so wrong to say, but its also worth considering what this means when you go for your next job. Your new potential employer will ask about the circumstances of your departure. You might feel you are the moral victor but is it worth it for a small payout, significant stress and an (unfair & unwarranted) blot on your career? Alternatively go for a compromise agreement, the company pays you off and you agree to say no more about it (basically you sign away your rights). Alot of companies do this to avoid bad publicity/dragging the process out/legal fees (why pay a lawyer 10K if they can just pay you that to shutup and clear off). I wish you luck with whatever you decide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zedrush Posted March 10, 2008 Share Posted March 10, 2008 http://www.acas.org.uk/ HELPLINE 08457 47 47 47 will let you know where you stand and its free +1 yes get in touch with them , I have been on the other side of the fence years ago with one of my employees, and these B****ds ran me ragged even the guy in question had no legitimate claim +1 I didnt go down the correct route in firing someone years ago, even though he squared up to so I said in his face youre sacked, took me to a tribuneral and won... got my own back though hee hee hee... Didnt know if someone has been working with you for more than six months, you have to give them 1 verbal and 2 written warnings then on top let them have their say with witnesses, to contest the warning, then its 50/50 if you can fire them... gone are the days when you can say on youre bike... but the situation that MarkW is in, I think thats a bit out of order of the new owners Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkW Posted March 11, 2008 Author Share Posted March 11, 2008 Thanks for all the help and advice guys. I will try ACAS and CAB to see what they say. Andy, mugwump - some very interesting points there. I really dont want to go down this route and hope I dont have to, but it does help to hear from other experiences, and it does also concern me what future employers might think. Louis - yes, if you dont mind asking. Its early days yet but just need to understand what my options are. I'm going to take things up with the company first, so I can be completely clear as to where I stand. There are 3 of us in the same position at the moment so we are all conferring over this. We are in a stronger position at the moment as they need us to complete some work, but in six months or so they will be able to do what they like. All I want is to be able to walk away with the redundancy I am entitled to, and to get another job. We are talking of over £30k so if I leave either voluntarily or am 'forced out' I stand to loose a lot. It is the loss of redundancy I was hoping to claim for if the worst happens. I have been on some employment law courses several years ago, but these were more as an employer than an employee. It was very clear from here though that if the company doesnt follow the correct procedure, then the employee has a far better case. I too have been on the other side of the fence. I suspended a guy several years ago for drinking at lunchtime and fighting in the pub!, who was subsequently dismissed. He then sucessfully appealed and he got his job back, which I thought was madness but it shows that employers are sometimes scared of employees who threaten action. Long service and company loyalty dont seem to count for anything any more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobby Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 bite the bullet Mark. here is my take on this. you have over 16 years of work experience with the same company and by your own admission is worth about £30k in redundancy payment. This is considerable amount of money by the year end. Regarding your perks being cut down:- have this been the case since the company was taken over by new management 2 years ago? if so they can always justify changing the perks in the intrest of management strategies etc... but if it is recent and exclusively to people in your own situation...then you may have a case for grievience with HR/manager. As pointed out in detail by AndySpak...keep records of all communications. Escalate it via proper channels. Keep a view to getting through the next 9 months but they should also know that you are on thier plans of constructive dismissal and if they try to push you to save £30k..you are not having it. Let me assure you. It will be a miserable 9 months....but its all about your priorities and the management knowing what your priorities are. as long as they know you wont be pushed around and they cant save the £30k, they will let off your case...maybe... bobby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbs Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Mark, one other thing I don't think has been mentioned. You state that you expect about £30k redundancy payment, this would suggest your company has a policy of paying enhanced redundancy payments as the stautory redundancy pay is £310 per week which would come to about £5k depending on your age. Make sure that this enhanced rate would apply to you. I know from experience that a company I worked for had in the past used the employees salary as the weekly amount to calculate redundancy but when they hit hard times that policy was dropped and they only paid the statutory minimum. They were allowed to do this as the enhanced amount was not in any union agreement or part of anyones contract of employment. Worth checking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nixy Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 Yep, the statutory legal requirment for redundancy pay is approx 1 weeks pay for every year you have worked for the company. This is capped now at 330 quid a week. So in other words peanuts unless they enhance it so you need to get that straight firstly. I would also recommend ACAS as a good place for advice and I would echo eveything Andy said too. My hubbie went through something similar a couple of years ago and by the time he came out of the tribunal and paid for the cost of a barrister he came out with £300 but the moral victory was worth it and also the fact that his employers still had to stump up even if we paid most of it out in legal fees. Hope it all works out for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H5 Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 I agree with what has been said so far. One thing to do while it is all fresh now though, is speak keep notes as to what has happened, who has made the decision, how it has affected the role etc etc and make sure that you are speaking to HR about it. Once it is recorded, it makes it a whole load more difficult for anything under hand to happen and be got away with. Document everything. I speak with no legal training, but having offered advice as a manager when I was at a previous place and someone thought they had a claim. Sorry to hear the story, a shame the costs of giving people fair redundancy hasn't been fully appreciated by the new / old owners..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarnie Posted March 11, 2008 Share Posted March 11, 2008 I'm sorry but how is one weeks wages per year worked a fair pay off especially as its capped??????? So five years service earns you about £1500???? Utter bollocks imo........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndySpak Posted March 12, 2008 Share Posted March 12, 2008 Its not really capped if your employer is paying it, the statutory rate is currently about £310 for every full year of service. The reason its set as a limit is because you can claim it from the government if your employer ceases to exist and has no money to pay you themselves. Its paid out of your NI contributions. Lots of people on old contracts will have enhanced redundancy such as a month's salary for every year worked, but this won't get paid out if the company has no funds (i.e. goes into liquidation). When this happens, staff redundancy becomes one of the many items on the creditors list who may get back 5p in every pouind they are owed... apart from the £310 for every year worked that is guaranteed by the government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nixy Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 and if you work for the government like I do - we are only permitted the statutory redundancy - they cannot enhance ours as it would come from public money. If ever I get redundant it will only be a weeks pay for every year worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H5 Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 and if you work for the government like I do - we are only permitted the statutory redundancy - they cannot enhance ours as it would come from public money. If ever I get redundant it will only be a weeks pay for every year worked. With a final salary pension? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndySpak Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 and if you work for the government like I do - we are only permitted the statutory redundancy - they cannot enhance ours as it would come from public money. If ever I get redundant it will only be a weeks pay for every year worked. With a final salary pension? I had one of those in my last job, at a private firm. If they'd paid me better I might have considered staying as the pension would have been brilliant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nixy Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 well yes.............mmm........waffle....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stanski Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 I also work in IT - its just the way of life in this job I'm afraid Do as everyone has said - keep records, go and see a solicitor - an initial brief chat should be free, but regardless its worth spending the money. I would stick it out and get the cash - its going to be hard but be strong and have the last laugh I can probably guess which firm you are being taken over by but best not mention here - we have them also! - God help us alll! good luck Stan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkW Posted March 13, 2008 Author Share Posted March 13, 2008 As it stands they are paying double statutory with no cap, hence why my payment should be quite good Thats two weeks per year up to age 41, then 3 weeks per year. This is what everyone who has left so far has been given, but they could always change it. This is why I think they might prefer peple to leave of their own accord when their usefullness has expired. It's going to take a while to get them to clarify the situation but will keep you posted..... I've got a final salary pension scheme at the moment too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndySpak Posted March 13, 2008 Share Posted March 13, 2008 Mark, have you checked your contract for what your specific redundancy terms are in there. Your new employer might operate a statutory redundancy scheme, doubled as an incentive for you to leave, but if your original contract stated that you were eligible to a month's salary per year then make sure you're not missing out. I took voluntary redundancy (VR) from a firm I worked at a few years ago (It was Fujitsu Services, I don't mind saying who it was, they dealt with the situation properly) and they offered double your contracted rate if you took VR. This was to incentivise people to go of their own free will before they had to make people redundant out of necessity. I didn't get much as I'd only been there 2 years however I had secured another job just prior to the redundancy announcement and I was about to hand my notice in anyway, so the £5K I got was a bonus really! Some people who probably wouldn't have lost their jobs had to take VR because they received a helluva sum. One lady who'd been there 20 years was on a month per year contract (doubled for VR) and received over £80K, my boss who had been there 16 years received £130K!!!! (although I have since heard that he is on his third wife in 6 years, has blown all his money and is now driving HGVs across Europe ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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