Pondering about Coilovers (KW v3 etc)

[RobPhoboS]

I use my car mostly for fun, no commuting and hopefully in the new year a few track days thrown in (4-6).

Currently it's on Bilstein B6, Tein springs, Eibach ARB, adjustable droplinks, and SPL spherical bushings front and rear, camber arms etc etc.

 

The only issue I'm finding now is that under 40mph the ride is quite crashy on the road due to the SPL bushings (not the Bilsteins), as I had poly before that so I noticed quite a change.

Obviously the trade off is far nicer steering and control but it does make you wince sometimes

As much as I'd like to just blast around everywhere...well I can't.

But when you are pressing on it feels good.

 

So I had the stupid idea of perhaps getting a set of KW V3's as I'm sure that this'll bring even more control and better ride quality. Although I'm not entirely sure about how it'll feel with the spherical bushings but I know it'll be ace for the track

 

I haven't seen that many people here put the SPL bushings on their cars that aren't just out and out track toys.

But if you are one of those guys that have done this I'd like to hear any feedback regarding spherical bushing and coilover combo

[MeisterR]

If you are looking at KW V3 and are focus on performance and comfort, the MeisterR GT1 could be another candidate.

 

The GT1 are custom build with CNC internal parts made in house at our workshop in Essex.

They are all custom build using expertise from our technical partner Black Art Design.

 

The GT1 is a easy to adjust 1-way adjustable system design to compete with the likes of Ohlins DFV.

I have personally use it on my own 350Z also and it does give very good compliancy and response, far better than what I can put in words actually.

 

They are responsive, but when you hit big and small bumps, the suspension absorb it very well.

Driving down country road and hitting rough patches of road at the apex do not upset the car at all.

It is an odd feeling as you expect the car to be upset by the bumps and made mental preparation for it, and the car just drive over it like it didn't exist.

 

 

 

 

The suspension also got plenty of ride height adjustment available, which is always good to have.

 

 

There is also an extended cable included, so that makes adjusting the rear damper much easier.

 

 

How the car sit once installed.

 

 

 

 

 

Road that I used for the test drive.

 

 

 

 

Jerrick

[d95gas]

Hi Jerrick,

 

Had your double perch coilovers on the MR2 Turbo and you did custom springs for me, they were awesome over rough ground. What price are the GT1's for a 2005 350?

 

 

Graeme

[RobPhoboS]

Many many thanks for the post Jerrick it's much appreciated !

 

The fact they are custom built is certainly intriguing, in what way is this achieved, what kind of details would you require ?

Also I'm curious as to build time on something like this?

Lastly for this kind of price for suspension I'm looking at putting down a deposit and financing it (I wish a few traders did this, well sort of heh), I know previously from an old thread you had offered this but is that still an option ?

[MeisterR]

Hi Jerrick,

 

Had your double perch coilovers on the MR2 Turbo and you did custom springs for me, they were awesome over rough ground. What price are the GT1's for a 2005 350?

 

 

Graeme

 

The GT1 RRP at £1650.

As we only recently launch the GT1, it is on an intro offer at £1295 delivered.

We will review the price in 2017, but that is where it stand at this moment in time.

 

The GT1 is a whole new level... it is honestly astounding what precision engineering and vehicle dynamic engineers can do.

You literally have to re-learn driving because the suspension start to do things that your mind cannot understand.

 

When your mind expect to perform some steering correction and your car say "not needed", it just blow your mind.

 

 

Many many thanks for the post Jerrick it's much appreciated !

 

The fact they are custom built is certainly intriguing, in what way is this achieved, what kind of details would you require ?

Also I'm curious as to build time on something like this?

Lastly for this kind of price for suspension I'm looking at putting down a deposit and financing it (I wish a few traders did this, well sort of heh), I know previously from an old thread you had offered this but is that still an option ?

 

Generally speaking, the GT1 are design as a fast road & track suspension.

They are comfortable on the road, and have enough damping adjustment to really stiffen things up for track use.

But they are a good all rounder and do everything well.

So in your case where you are looking for a fast road & track suspension, then no details are needed.

We just need time to custom build them because the GT1 aren't off the shelf unit.

 

We can also finance the GT1 with a 0% interests for 12 months.

But we cannot do that along with the initial discount as that is quite bare bone already.

So if you are interested, drop us an E-mail at info@meisterr.co.uk

 

We can sort something out for you that are in between and fair.

 

Jerrick

[RobPhoboS]

Many thanks Jerrick, I sent a PM regarding the GT1's.

 

I guess my biggest concern regarding any coilover at this moment is how they'll be responding with the SPL bushings.

As I know it's these that are responding to the high frequency "harshness" (for lack of better terms), once you get going they are fine and you confident with the B6's but the lack of adjustment after chasing sharper steering has led me here

[MeisterR]

I'll answer your PM, but I'll answer here as I think people may have the same questions.

 

One of the best feature of the GT1 is the way it respond to high frequency vibration.

The GT1 damper runs a zero bleed piston, what you generally find in motorsport dampers.

What it does inside is that the way the shims are setup inside, there is an initialisation to the damping if that makes sense.

 

What this initialisation does is it allow small amount of movement before the "main" forces comes in.

And this have two effect on a fast road & track car.

 

1. It provide a little give to the tyres and allows it to find "grip" before the suspension throws weight on it in a corner.

What this mean is the tyres actually get a progressive load and actually makes more traction at the turn in point where you are vehicle dynamically loading the tyres.

 

2. It allows the suspension to move to small vibration movement.

What this mean is the suspension will move to those high frequency vibration, such as small bumps you find on the motorway.

This mean the ride is much more comfortable for long journey, and also give better compliancy during those bumpy road you get on country road surfaces.

 

Regarding responding to SPL bushings, the GT1 are good at responding to NVH (Noise Vibration Harshness).

But of course, there are limit because a lot of NVH from spherical bearing don't actually comes through the dampers but through the car chassis itself.

These will be the same for any dampers, and the GT1 would be one of the best damper on the market I would say in dealing with NVH.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Jerrick

[RobPhoboS]

Huge thanks for the information!

(from here and several other forums with technical info).

 

I can certainly say I'm tempted now.

[Rocket_Rabbit]

KWv3s are simply amazing. On various cars I have ran Meister R, Tein, BC, BuddyClub, H&R, Bilstien, Eibach. The v3 win. I'm sure you could spend £2500+ on some AST/Nitrons, but for £1500, brilliant. That and they're stainless bodied so survive the harsh winters. Meisters rot like hell IME. Even BC's were better! The v3's are also two way as opposed to one way.

 

I'm not a trader so stand to make no profit from this advice. Make of this what you will

 

No doubt we'll see posts how MeisterR dampers make you 37 second a lap faster around the Nurburgring...

Edited December 30, 2016 by Rocket_Rabbit

[RobPhoboS]

Hah, I certainly appreciate the input !

One thing I'm not massively concerned about is the body coating, as I tend to get the car on the ramp quite frequently, so always give them a wipe down, however yes the KW bodies always look great no matter the age.

The KW V3 is £1728 though.

 

What MeisterR suspension did you have, and was it from new ?

 

[Rocket_Rabbit]

Hah, I certainly appreciate the input !

One thing I'm not massively concerned about is the body coating, as I tend to get the car on the ramp quite frequently, so always give them a wipe down, however yes the KW bodies always look great no matter the age.

The KW V3 is £1728 though.

 

What MeisterR suspension did you have, and was it from new ?

 

Shop around for the KWv3s. I found a place in Germany that was doing them for a decent price, although the £ vs Euro is sh1t. Yay Brexit...

 

Zeta S on a Civic, Zeta R on an ITR DC2, Zeta R on an MX5 (Mk1 and Mk2).

 

Yellow Speed, HSD, Torquen, MeisterR they are all the generic cheap chinese stuff with different colours and a nice sticker. If you ever go to autosport international, you can find manufacturers of the stuff. Last year I found the manufacturer for a LOT of OBX products.

 

You'll get stories of wonder and amazement from people who fitted them - not mentioning they replaced their 100k mile dampers, one of which was leaking, on had a cracked spring, and also got a Geometry done at the same time.

 

Personally I think the OEM suspension is very good, especially for the road. Sure, if you are turning your Z into a track weapon, it isn't going to cut it as it's too soft.

 

But the KWv3 damping is very well set, especially the differential between low and high speed damping, not to mention you can fine tune the rebound to compensate for the Z's relatively heavy corner. If you ARE going track weapon, look at the KW Clubsport which are v3 except with stiffer spring and damper ranges.

 

I know they are expensive, but definitely worth it IME/IMO if you're going to track it. Otherwise, buy some used OEM stuff from a lower mileage vehicle. Plenty of stuff being sold in the US and it's in decent condition thanks to no salt!

[nissanman312]

Hah, I certainly appreciate the input !

One thing I'm not massively concerned about is the body coating, as I tend to get the car on the ramp quite frequently, so always give them a wipe down, however yes the KW bodies always look great no matter the age.

The KW V3 is £1728 though.

 

What MeisterR suspension did you have, and was it from new ?

 

 

I payed 1250 for my v3 they are epic I love them

PM me for details of who to speak to regards price

Edited December 30, 2016 by nissanman312

[Rocket_Rabbit]

Hah, I certainly appreciate the input !

One thing I'm not massively concerned about is the body coating, as I tend to get the car on the ramp quite frequently, so always give them a wipe down, however yes the KW bodies always look great no matter the age.

The KW V3 is £1728 though.

 

What MeisterR suspension did you have, and was it from new ?

 

 

I payed 1250 for my v3 they are epic I love them

PM me for details of who to speak to regards price

Great price!!!

[RobPhoboS]

Cheers chaps.

 

Rocket_Rabbit:

If you check at the top you'll see I've done quite a lot already regarding the suspension.

When I went from stock to the yellow billies (B6) that was a huge leap in handling especially as 2 of the OEM shocks were completely knackered

 

For me, it's largely road driving (fun, no commuting) with a handful of track days.

 

Looks like you've tried a LOT of coilovers

The GT1's aren't a clone though, made here not China.

 

Once again thank you

[MeisterR]

Yellow Speed, HSD, Torquen, MeisterR they are all the generic cheap chinese stuff with different colours and a nice sticker. If you ever go to autosport international, you can find manufacturers of the stuff. Last year I found the manufacturer for a LOT of OBX products.

 

Suspension is a personal preference, therefore one may prefer a brand to another.

As far as I am concern, I am happy with that the long as the customers are happy with what they have.

 

One thing I will however point out is that MeisterR are not cheap Chinese stuff with a different colour and a nice stickers, because we are one of the few brand that actually have our own workshop, research & development, and manufacturing capability in the UK.

 

Even for the entry level ZetaCRD, the internal valving specification are designed by us.

We engineered the internal valving specification in house at our workshop in Essex along with our in-house technical partner Black Art Design (BAD).

 

 

The internal valving are unique to MeisterR, all information disclosed to our production are protected under a non-disclosure agreement.

What that mean is even the factory's own product could not use our data, and therefore you will not find another suspension on the market with the same specs as MeisterR.

 

The ZetaCRD use thicker damper Shafter compare to most dampers on the market, and thus create a stronger damper unit.

Even something as simple as our locking collars were engineered by us and is currently under a UK patent pending status.

 

As far as the GT1 goes, we use a lot of CNC internal parts that are engineered and machined in house.

The CNC damper shaft seal we use on the GT1 are rated to 400 bars of pressure (a typical damper would not exceed 40 bars).

You can call up AST, Nitron, Penske, Moton, and see who actually use such high quality CNC shaft seals, and I can say most of them won't.

The only company I can think of that use CNC shaft seal is some of the top end rally suspension such as Reiger.

 

 

The GT1 also comes with a custom made progressive rate bump stop.

This bump stop are designed to mechanically crush and then materially crush.

The starting rate is 6lbf and goes up to 400lbf over 70% of it's crush travel; that mean you can engage your bump stop and not even know it.

All this is to create a better ride quality and vehicle dynamics over other suspension.

 

 

While I do understand that there have been MANY suspension brands on the market that honestly have no clue about suspension, as they just buy what is available from a factory and put a sticker on with pretty colour.

 

MeisterR is an exception to that rule, because we actually design our specification and get factory to manufacture what we engineered.

 

Many suspension can look similar to MeisterR on the outside, but the inside as well as the performance is guarantee to be different.

 

Just thought I put up some info to clear the cloud, as we put in a lot more work to our suspension than just pick a pretty colour and print a nice looking sticker.

 

Jerrick

Edited December 31, 2016 by MeisterR

[Rocket_Rabbit]

Cheers chaps.

 

Rocket_Rabbit:

If you check at the top you'll see I've done quite a lot already regarding the suspension.

When I went from stock to the yellow billies (B6) that was a huge leap in handling especially as 2 of the OEM shocks were completely knackered

 

For me, it's largely road driving (fun, no commuting) with a handful of track days.

 

Looks like you've tried a LOT of coilovers

The GT1's aren't a clone though, made here not China.

 

Once again thank you

Yeah I have read the schpiel on the GT1. Bottom line is Kwv3s are brilliant, I have seen previous quality of MeisterR, price is similar.

[Olly350z]

Just putting this out there, Jerrick may or may not remember me from the days of civiclife.net but I ran a set of his zeta Rs on my EK4 for over 4 years with no problems. Prior to installation they were greased an regularly got a jetwashing and WD40. That civic did well over 40K miles on them and when they eventually came off they looked as good as the day they were fitted. And are still on the road now a year later on a tracked civic

 

Cheaper yes, low quality? I disagree. You wont find many traders who'll spend over an hour on the phone out of their unpaid time answering all of your stupid questions either (my own stupid questions before purchase, before anyone takes offence)

 

And actually due to my own ignornace, seeing Jerrick trading here and selling coilovers for Zs, may well be getting a phone call in the not too distant future from me

Edited December 31, 2016 by Olly350z

[Snjur]

Thumbs up for Kw3 I had them on few cars just pita to adjust them as compression and rebound are separated so it takes a lot of time to adjust it properly unless u have someone in vicinity how is licensed Kw seller and posses a knowledge for adjusting them.

I'm in same dilema although I just almost same modification on suspension that you do except bushings I run Energy suspension bushing and B14 coilovers. Finally I decided I will go with Tein Monosport and give them a try

 

Sent from my SM-G850F using Tapatalk

 

 

[docwra]

Mods, can we move this to the MeisterR section?

 

I reckon Ive used probably 15+ types of coilover on various cars and I never quite got over how good HSD's were for the money on the 350Z - Ive no doubt v3's would probably be as good but they cost a lot more in the first place. I cant believe you can pick a set up for £1250 ........

[MeisterR]

Mods, can we move this to the MeisterR section?

 

I have probably put out a fair bit of information about MeisterR.

 

The thing is when someone say MeisterR is the same as everything else on the market bar a different colour and a stickers.

That is simply not true.

 

We spend about 3 years developing the GT1 from start to finish.

End up merging company, merging operation, and end up with 3 CNC machine in the workshop.

 

We spend a good part of 12 months using data off the back of the GT1 to develop the ZetaCRD.

From developing the damper valving, engineering the unique collars, and putting everything into production.

 

We have masses of data to back up what we have done, and that is why I do feel the best way to show that we are different is to show the work we have done.

Because that is the only way to prove that we are different, and that is work that no other suspension brands can show.

 

Jerrick

[Rocket_Rabbit]

Just putting this out there, Jerrick may or may not remember me from the days of civiclife.net but I ran a set of his zeta Rs on my EK4 for over 4 years with no problems. Prior to installation they were greased an regularly got a jetwashing and WD40. That civic did well over 40K miles on them and when they eventually came off they looked as good as the day they were fitted. And are still on the road now a year later on a tracked civic

 

Cheaper yes, low quality? I disagree. You wont find many traders who'll spend over an hour on the phone out of their unpaid time answering all of your stupid questions either (my own stupid questions before purchase, before anyone takes offence)

 

And actually due to my own ignornace, seeing Jerrick trading here and selling coilovers for Zs, may well be getting a phone call in the not too distant future from me

I am glad the MeisterR's satisfy your quality and performance standards. They don't satisfy mine and the ability of the KWs is waaay beyond anyway. Pays your money, makes your choice.

[djtimo]

Rob you know I'm on KW V3's and i love them for road use but on track there just sprung to softly. Quality is excellent though.

[Olly350z]

Sarcasm overload. Lol

[djtimo]

Yellow Speed, HSD, Torquen, MeisterR they are all the generic cheap chinese stuff with different colours and a nice sticker. If you ever go to autosport international, you can find manufacturers of the stuff. Last year I found the manufacturer for a LOT of OBX products.

 

Suspension is a personal preference, therefore one may prefer a brand to another.

As far as I am concern, I am happy with that the long as the customers are happy with what they have.

 

One thing I will however point out is that MeisterR are not cheap Chinese stuff with a different colour and a nice stickers, because we are one of the few brand that actually have our own workshop, research & development, and manufacturing capability in the UK.

 

Even for the entry level ZetaCRD, the internal valving specification are designed by us.

We engineered the internal valving specification in house at our workshop in Essex along with our in-house technical partner Black Art Design (BAD).

 

 

The internal valving are unique to MeisterR, all information disclosed to our production are protected under a non-disclosure agreement.

What that mean is even the factory's own product could not use our data, and therefore you will not find another suspension on the market with the same specs as MeisterR.

 

The ZetaCRD use thicker damper Shafter compare to most dampers on the market, and thus create a stronger damper unit.

Even something as simple as our locking collars were engineered by us and is currently under a UK patent pending status.

 

As far as the GT1 goes, we use a lot of CNC internal parts that are engineered and machined in house.

The CNC damper shaft seal we use on the GT1 are rated to 400 bars of pressure (a typical damper would not exceed 40 bars).

You can call up AST, Nitron, Penske, Moton, and see who actually use such high quality CNC shaft seals, and I can say most of them won't.

The only company I can think of that use CNC shaft seal is some of the top end rally suspension such as Reiger.

 

 

The GT1 also comes with a custom made progressive rate bump stop.

This bump stop are designed to mechanically crush and then materially crush.

The starting rate is 6lbf and goes up to 400lbf over 70% of it's crush travel; that mean you can engage your bump stop and not even know it.

All this is to create a better ride quality and vehicle dynamics over other suspension.

 

 

While I do understand that there have been MANY suspension brands on the market that honestly have no clue about suspension, as they just buy what is available from a factory and put a sticker on with pretty colour.

 

MeisterR is an exception to that rule, because we actually design our specification and get factory to manufacture what we engineered.

 

Many suspension can look similar to MeisterR on the outside, but the inside as well as the performance is guarantee to be different.

 

Just thought I put up some info to clear the cloud, as we put in a lot more work to our suspension than just pick a pretty colour and print a nice looking sticker.

 

Jerrick

 

Can you post up the damper curves for each click of adjustment for these please??

 

Shame you don't offer double adjustable versions.

[MeisterR]

Can you post up the damper curves for each click of adjustment for these please??

 

Shame you don't offer double adjustable versions.

 

The reason we don't offer double adjustable dampers is because we feel most owners will obtain better performance with a single adjustable damper.

All MeisterR dampers are compression & rebound combined adjustable mono-tube dampers.

What that mean is that the compression force adjust along with the rebound force, there is no need to have a separate adjustment to adjust the compression force.

 

Most Twin-tube dampers are rebound only adjustment as a single adjustable setup (KW V2, Koni Yellow Sport, etc).

That is why they need to add in an additional adjustment in order to control the compression force.

 

As the damping ratio are pre-designed within the adjustment with the MeisterR, this makes damping adjustment easier and eliminate the possibility of incorrect adjustments.

If an owner was not sure on how to adjust a 2-way damper, they could easily end up with a 1:5 compression to rebound ratio, and that will not be very good for performance.

This will not happen if the owners is using a compression & rebound combined adjustable damper.

 

We can to separate adjustable dampers, and it is in the plan.

This is more for race car and we will go straight to a 3-way adjustable with an external reservoir.

Because if any car require more than the GT1, then a 3-way with a high speed compression blow off will provide much better performance.

 

Here is a plot of the adjustment, taken at 140mm/s.

The line is full stiff, -5 clicks, -10 clicks, -15 clicks, -20 clicks, full soft.

 

We take the adjustments this way because 140mm/s is our "stick in the mud" point for vehicle dynamic analysis.

The same stick that Bilstein had been using since the 1970's, so most have been using this speed for vehicle dynamic ever since.

 

But you can see how the ratio changes as well as the cracking pressure (bleed), which is all the important thing we need to know in order to see how the damper will work on the vehicle dynamically.

 

 

Jerrick