sasha@lazytrips Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Are they stupid enough that they need a Key Facts document to go with it? From having seen quite a few of them on TV, I'd say that they actually do, yes. Q: Could you tell us what you're protesting about? A: They want me to pay more towards my pension. Q: Your pension is already the best pension deal anybody in the country can get and if people don't pay more, the whole system will go bust and nobody will get any pension. What would you propose to do about that? A: Erm. I dunno. Burn the bankers, sell their homes and pay me the resulting money? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesterfield Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 Heres the typical stuff they publish: http://www.unison.org.uk/pensions/fairerfuture.asp What I find quite annoying is that they decide to run with headline grabbing items such as "Sandra - £413 a year worse off at work, £1069 worse off a year in retirement". or "Tina - £597 worse off today, £1275 worse off tomorrow". Without giving any specific detail what so ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarty Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 The point i was trying to make about nurses is that no matter how bad there employment conditions get, whether its pensions, working condition etc they wont strike even if they voted yes to do so. Most that voted yes prob did as a scare tatic. Also when i joined the NHS, like others i did so knowing that my salary would be 25% less than if i had used my qualifications and experience to gain employment in the private sector. The reason why i did this was due to the job security and pension scheme it offered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sasha@lazytrips Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Heres the typical stuff they publish: http://www.unison.org.uk/pensions/fairerfuture.asp What I find quite annoying is that they decide to run with headline grabbing items such as "Sandra - £413 a year worse off at work, £1069 worse off a year in retirement". or "Tina - £597 worse off today, £1275 worse off tomorrow". Without giving any specific detail what so ever. WOW. I went on that link and on the first page, they've got this sentence: "Now they are told that their pensions, the schemes they pay into every month, must be cut to pay off the deficit caused by reckless bankers. It's just not fair." I have no words to describe the stupidity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Is this meant to be news in any case? I havent had a pay rise in two years, yet inflation hasn't stood still...I am worse off now. I think you are almost coming to the crux of it and why there is always so little public sympathy. As the private sector gets taxed more and pays out more whilst at the same time having pay freezes and benefits frozen or taken away, the public sector seems to think it should be immune to the prevailing conditions of a countries economy. There is no doubting its 'not fair' on the public sector (although not in the idiotic manner that is described above - what muppets what jokers and the public sector workers entrust these people are you kidding me!!!!!), and no one will disagree that the nurses etc work hard - but we are all in this together as far as I can see. Take the hit, everyone else is, and if you dont like it, move to the private sector if we are all so well off in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sasha@lazytrips Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 The point i was trying to make about nurses is that no matter how bad there employment conditions get, whether its pensions, working condition etc they wont strike even if they voted yes to do so. Most that voted yes prob did as a scare tatic.Also when i joined the NHS, like others i did so knowing that my salary would be 25% less than if i had used my qualifications and experience to gain employment in the private sector. The reason why i did this was due to the job security and pension scheme it offered. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. Nobody is taking away pensions that have already been accrued! That's the thing. Nothing is being "taken away" from anybody. Everybody now has a choice. They either stick with the proposed arrangements or they can leave and go work in a the private sector. My understanding is that everything accrued to-date stands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK350Z Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 e.g. (all numbers fictitious) We have a £10Bn pot for pensions sitting in a bank (now I know that it doesn't work like that as there is no actual national pension fund, but ignore that for the purpose of the exercise). Every year without any change, this pot goes down by £2Bn. We have thought through a number of scenarios and our tax and National Insurance changes are the optimal solution at the present time and they will pay for £0.7Bn of the above gap. All people on public sector pension schemes now have a choice: Option 1: You pay an extra 3.2% in pension contributions. Your pension benefits remain unchanged. Option 2: You continue paying your old contributions. All contributions to-date will remain at the previous arrangement, but your pension accrual from now on will be lower - please refer to some document which will explain how much lower it will be. Option 3: You choose to opt-out of the Public Sector Pension Programme. All contributions to-date will be honoured and you will make your own private arrangements through a private pension scheme. You will get half the standard employer contributions (in monetary terms) added to any of your own contributions. If you put it forward as a straight-forward explanation that there simply is no other way as you can't just magically make up money that doesn't exist, then maybe a few more people would wake up and smell the coffee. Thats right, bizzarely there is no "pot" for NI contributions. New members are paying their contributions straight to older members pensions, it's like one massive Ponzi Scheme! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarty Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 The point i was trying to make about nurses is that no matter how bad there employment conditions get, whether its pensions, working condition etc they wont strike even if they voted yes to do so. Most that voted yes prob did as a scare tatic.Also when i joined the NHS, like others i did so knowing that my salary would be 25% less than if i had used my qualifications and experience to gain employment in the private sector. The reason why i did this was due to the job security and pension scheme it offered. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. Nobody is taking away pensions that have already been accrued! That's the thing. Nothing is being "taken away" from anybody. Everybody now has a choice. They either stick with the proposed arrangements or they can leave and go work in a the private sector. My understanding is that everything accrued to-date stands. I agree I for one could seek employment in the private sector, but what do all the nurses thats spent up to 4 years at university do? How many private employers employ nursing staff? As ive already said they simply have to grin and put up with it no matter how bad it gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 This is pretty much exactly the same line of thinking as those "Occupy" protesting idiots. I actually went up to some of them sitting in tents in Nottingham one evening as they were having a cup of tea and asked them if they could succinctly explain to me what they were protesting about. A bunch of them threw incoherent gibberish at me after which I asked whether they had a firm plan of action with concrete steps, dates and numbers which the government could take and they all had absolutely nothing to say. You sir, are a legend and I doff my cap to thee. Great stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 The point i was trying to make about nurses is that no matter how bad there employment conditions get, whether its pensions, working condition etc they wont strike even if they voted yes to do so. Most that voted yes prob did as a scare tatic.Also when i joined the NHS, like others i did so knowing that my salary would be 25% less than if i had used my qualifications and experience to gain employment in the private sector. The reason why i did this was due to the job security and pension scheme it offered. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. Nobody is taking away pensions that have already been accrued! That's the thing. Nothing is being "taken away" from anybody. Everybody now has a choice. They either stick with the proposed arrangements or they can leave and go work in a the private sector. My understanding is that everything accrued to-date stands. I totally understand that point of view, and its 'unfair' that things change, but thats how the world works things change. Jobs for life and and meaty pensions are a thing of the past, it is not sustainable business arrangement. Should you be taking that up with Mr Cameron, I dont think so, you should be hunting out the PM who was in charge when you signed up. I understand why people are fighting for pensions, of course you would, its a lovely way to see out your older years. Will you win, no, never, because it is unsustainable. Private companies that 'promised' X Y and Z to employees are cutting back, taking things away, rationalising their businesses - its happened to everyone. So, leave the public sector, get your higher paid private job (if you can find one) and then see that extra money you earn taken from you and spent holding up an unsustainable public sector pension fund and then argue the case for it PS not meant you as in you Stuarty just public sector in general Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesterfield Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 It is very interesting to cross refference their "pensions: busting the myths" page with their calculators. In one of the Myths they dispel a myth that public sector pensions are "huge" by stating that the average pension is £3500. In order to receive a pension of that ammount then they must be at or below the level of salary that is affected anyway by their own calculators. They also attempt to bust another myth: "It's not fair, why should the public sector get good pensions when the private sector doesn't? " They do this by comparing the average public sector pension to the average pension of a FTSE 100 director. As for public sector workers just having to grin and put up with it. Hows about private sector businesses that have had business rates increased, corporation tax increases, NI increases and the impending introduction of NEST. The private sector pension schemes have been hit massively by the financial crisis too, its not just a pop at the public sector. Final salary schemes in the private sector became almost exticnt many years ago, and its about time the public sector realised exactly why they are unsustainable. The figures as mentioned earlier in relation to the number of people voting are a complete joke too. From unisons own page - Local Government (including Scotland) voted: Yes 171,428 No 54,500. Turnout was 30%. So thats actually 171,428 of a pottential 753,093. So the strike action is on after less than 23% of workers voted for it. For the NHS including Scotland it was less than 21% of employees voting yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 They do this by comparing the average public sector pension to the average pension of a FTSE 100 director. Oh good grief, I have to read this tonight, sounds like a barrel of laughs and could do with cheering up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris`I Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 They do this by comparing the average public sector pension to the average pension of a FTSE 100 director. Oh good grief, I have to read this tonight, sounds like a barrel of laughs and could do with cheering up You mean you two dont own a FTSE 100 company like the rest of us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 FTSE 10,000-12,000 company Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roo Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Many of the figures quoted in the press are skewed or mis-quoted to suit the spin of the story. The basic underlying principal is with people living longer pensions are costing more. The government needs to make savings and increase taxation to cope with an population that is getting older and requiring more care. So what are there options? Tax the private sector to cope with this? The risk being it could stunt growth and discourage investment. Or cut spending (But many public services having their budgets constrained already). What they are trying to do is a combination of both so no one is hit massivly however this means everyone takes a hit. My parents both have worked or work in education and both don't whole heartedly agree with the strike action and understand the necessity for it - even if it is disappointing. The level of pension provision in the public sector is simply unsustainable without risking damaging other sectors of our country. Whilst it is bitterly disapointing for a teacher who has works hard and gives up there spare time for the good of their school which would we prefer? Just dont build a Hospital or two to help cover the pension costs? Yes there are inefficent government organisations and local bodies but hacking at them just makes the unions more irate. I agree it shouldnt be a "race to the bottom" and anger is understandable we have realise if you want a comfortable and long retirement there is a cost. And that cost is only increasing. There is no magic bullet, something has to give and only so much burden can be placed elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Good post Roo, nicely put. I remember a couple of years ago Sky News had a country budget simulator, you chose what was important be it education, military, etc and then ran the simulator based on the amount of money the government had - it was a no win situation, the money ran out before you could do all you wanted to do. You had to give up on some areas to maintain others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbiscuit Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 I have been reading with interest the last couple of days, but chose not to post for now, I found it difficult to write what i felt/thought. Being a Teacher i currently feel like the "bad" guy. there are a lot of people with very strong views, and to be honest a lot of points i agree with. and i felt no matter what i say people might see red. I understand this situation infuriates a lot of people, and i a big divider between people. Why i agree with the Points being discussed/fought for by the unions: - going in to teaching has seen me between £10- £15k behind my equivilants in industry, my pension was the sweetner for a difficult career; i might not earn masses but i'd be well looked after when i retired. - having that changed from what i originally signed up for is a bit in the teeth, if my pension was to reduce in some ways i would prefer my salary to be brought inline with my industrial equivilants. - several of the unions are also striking because of current work loads being pushed beyond what is reasonable, and not just pension. Why i don't agree with the current strike action and agree with those in the private sector: - Everybody is in the crap at the moment, we all need to help pay our way. - i still have an OK pension, maybe not as good as it was but still not horrific - I don't agree with strike action, it doesnt achieve anything - you can only take so much out of the pot, and if there isn't enough then it won't work and i'll be screwed further down the line. Things that don't add up: - before all these changes were made no one had actually valued the teachers (not sure about other sectors) pension pot, at the last valuation there wasn't apparently any issues and certain changes to bring everything into line with the previous governemnt had been agreed and all seemed fine - there used to be plenty of money in the pension pot but from what i can gather previous goverments have dipped in to this pot and spent it on other things. My worries: - i still have another 36 years of teaching before retirement at 66, who's to say my pension won't be further played with, if by the time i actually get there and all the hard work i've put in i get nothing. (this will already be the case with NI) - teaching till 70 scares the crap out of me, its a young persons game; if the plans to increase the pnesionable age continue to go up, i could still have another 46 years to go. - i don't like being banded in with all the other public sector areas, yes they are all striking including us but i think there are others like the civil service who are alot better off than us( teachers) Final conclusion I am not a member of any union which is unusual for a teacher, i don't agree with some of their policy's i don't like the fact that some are militant, and that others fund political parties with contributions. I don't like the fact that the union fee helps keep fat cats at the top in posh cars and nices houses. I AM NOT STRIKING tomorrow and will be in work as usual, i am one of only 30 people out of a staff of 130 people who will be in tomorrow working as much as possible as normal. i don't like the fact i will be a little worse off for it and my pension not quiet as shiney as it was once meant to be, but i will just have to swallow it and get on with the job. I do however find it hard to sit and watch/read/see people make comments about us being ungrateful, whingey drop outs who want soemthing for nothing off the hard working public. i would say don't pass judgement on us until you've actually done our job, it might actually change your perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwantone Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Speaking entirely for myself here. I did all that was asked of me. I paid 8% company superannuation into a final salary pension scheme and was easily set to get 40/60ths (2/3) of final salary upon retirement. Then it all went wrong! The company placed the scheme into wind up and now we find ourselves at the tender mercies of the FAS. This is what makes it hard for me and my colleagues to feel sympathy for the public sector. Our council tax bills actually had a 1% surcharge one year to help fund the gap in their pension fund and that went down a treat. Having said that, I can't blame anyone for trying to defend what they have. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Good post Rich - I would agree with most I wouldnt agree you can strike because of working more than is reasonable, at the moment I get into work at around 6:30am and finish around 7:30ish every day, I get paid 9:30-5:30 - i am doing 13 hour days minimum as the norm. Its what you have to do to keep your business alive in tough times - I am not looking to other people to bail me out. I can see why people went public sector, in the old days it was a 'job for life' etc but I dont think that will be the case ever again - I dont agree that striking to sustain that approach is correct. You are right that we shouldnt lump public sector together. As I posted earlier a small minority actually bothered to vote yes (less than a third), that doesnt even include people such as yourself who arent members of unions and are against the striking action. The vote to strike was made by a minority led by union leaders who are leading their own agenda which may or may not be for the good of their workers, that is a bit sad in my view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyBoy Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Great post RT, puts across the public sector point of view from an informed perspective However, my issue wouldn't be with those like you who have actually addressed the facts and realised that however rubbish it is (and essentially having been lied to about your pension is pretty rubbish) there's no alternative and it's a necessary evil. I'll try and put this across without it sounding like a rant, but what really gets me is that a significant number of public sector workers are having a sh*tfit because they'll have to contribute more to get their still very competitive pension when they retire a bit later than they thought. Can we have some perspective here? I hate to use myself as an example, but it's too fitting to pass it up: I signed on the dotted line for 19 years of military service, 19 years during which I could not leave without permission (which may not be granted) and without losing most (or all of) of my pension and all of my final payoff that I would have effectively been paying into for my whole career, so quite a comittment. In return I get the assurance of the government that despite having no Unions and it being illegal for me to strike, i'll be treated fairly and my interests will be looked after, they call it the Military Covenant. So two years of training later, bang, i'm redundant, nothing i can do about it. I have no transferable skills, i get nothing for the two years i served, and i now have to try and find a job in the most competitive job market for decades despite being vastly under-qualified and under-experienced for my age. But sh*t happens. As RT said, I don't think for a second that the government would have done that unless they felt they really needed to. I can see that, why can't these people? Far worse things are happening in the private sector, everyone is getting hit, and actually the public sector workers who are striking seem to be coming out of it ok compared to most. When will people start looking beyond the end of their nose at the demonstration of an unsustainable public sector which is very conveniently playing out in Greece right now? DB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesterfield Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 Even after reforms the pensions of public sector workers will be massively superior to almost any private sector pension. The contributions made by the employer will dwarf the contributions made by employers in the private sector. I would advocate public sector workers earning the same as those in the private sector only if their pensions were matched too. Therefore no final salary schemes and employer contributions vastly reduced too. So while the private sector in some areas may earn more than the equivalent public sector worker, combining the working life earnings and retirement earnings, the public sector are still way ahead. Has anyone also noticed that the unions themselves have also now stopped spouting the line that public sector workers earn far less than their private sector counterparts? The reason is that average public sector pay now exceeds average private sector pay. So not only are the average earnings higher, the pensions are massively higher than the equivalent private sector and yet they still call for strikes. It may be a regular argument that as public sector workers they could earn more in the private sector. Maybe they could, but then why not work out how much they would have to pay into a private pension scheme to get the same benefits when they retire. Even if the reforms go through, to retire with the same equivalent pension of a Nurse or Teacher, a person in the private sector would still have to save £600,000+ into a private pension pot. So thats £17,000 per year that would need to be invested in a private pension for 35 years, just to have the same pension. Also, from a private sector point of view - whats to stop them changing how much you can pay into a private sector pension before they tax you on the money on the way IN, as well as on the way out later on in life..... Oh - hang on.... They have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris`I Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Even if the reforms go through, to retire with the same equivalent pension of a Nurse or Teacher, a person in the private sector would still have to save £600,000+ into a private pension pot. So thats £17,000 per year that would need to be invested in a private pension for 35 years, just to have the same pension. And I thought I had quite a good pension Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtbiscuit Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 The majority of teachers join unions for 1 reason and thats the protection they offer, i.e. if a student makes an accusation the union will usually legally fund the case and supply a legal advisor, solicitor or barrister etc what ever is needed. it also gives teachers the access to a representative for industrial tribunals or disciplinary hearings. i am currently trying to find if an insurance company will insure me as a teacher to give me that legal protection, so that i don't need to join a union. but all i can seem to find is stuff for private tutors and people like fitness instructors etc. i never put myself in a situation where something could be "misunderstood" but it only takes one student with a grudge to say a teacher "touched" them, and thats career over. regardless of if its true or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesterfield Posted November 29, 2011 Author Share Posted November 29, 2011 Indeed - and this is what unions should be for. They have an important role to play in ensuring that people are free to do their job to the best of their ability and they are not walked over by employees. However, what they should NOT be doing in my opinion is presenting a one sided view of pension reforms which are absolutely vital to our economies stability. There is not one single article or scrap of a publication by any of the unions which sets out to discuss the pension reforms fairly. They all, without fail, present a single minded view that under no circumstances should they be changed. They present NO alternative, and they do not set out any figures other than "look how much less you will get". What they should do is say - you will pay in £2,285 a year - and in return you will get £64,000 tax free (which is what they would have got if it had been taxed at 20% as income), and also pay you a pension of £21,000 a year until the day you die. Does this sound like a good deal? Anyone voting No, can then opt out of the scheme and go get a private one that does better. Thought not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ebized Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 I have been reading with interest the last couple of days, but chose not to post for now, I found it difficult to write what i felt/thought. Being a Teacher i currently feel like the "bad" guy. there are a lot of people with very strong views, and to be honest a lot of points i agree with. and i felt no matter what i say people might see red. I understand this situation infuriates a lot of people, and i a big divider between people. Why i agree with the Points being discussed/fought for by the unions: - going in to teaching has seen me between £10- £15k behind my equivilants in industry, my pension was the sweetner for a difficult career; i might not earn masses but i'd be well looked after when i retired. - having that changed from what i originally signed up for is a bit in the teeth, if my pension was to reduce in some ways i would prefer my salary to be brought inline with my industrial equivilants. - several of the unions are also striking because of current work loads being pushed beyond what is reasonable, and not just pension. Why i don't agree with the current strike action and agree with those in the private sector: - Everybody is in the crap at the moment, we all need to help pay our way. - i still have an OK pension, maybe not as good as it was but still not horrific - I don't agree with strike action, it doesnt achieve anything - you can only take so much out of the pot, and if there isn't enough then it won't work and i'll be screwed further down the line. Things that don't add up: - before all these changes were made no one had actually valued the teachers (not sure about other sectors) pension pot, at the last valuation there wasn't apparently any issues and certain changes to bring everything into line with the previous governemnt had been agreed and all seemed fine - there used to be plenty of money in the pension pot but from what i can gather previous goverments have dipped in to this pot and spent it on other things. My worries: - i still have another 36 years of teaching before retirement at 66, who's to say my pension won't be further played with, if by the time i actually get there and all the hard work i've put in i get nothing. (this will already be the case with NI) - teaching till 70 scares the crap out of me, its a young persons game; if the plans to increase the pnesionable age continue to go up, i could still have another 46 years to go. - i don't like being banded in with all the other public sector areas, yes they are all striking including us but i think there are others like the civil service who are alot better off than us( teachers) Final conclusion I am not a member of any union which is unusual for a teacher, i don't agree with some of their policy's i don't like the fact that some are militant, and that others fund political parties with contributions. I don't like the fact that the union fee helps keep fat cats at the top in posh cars and nices houses. I AM NOT STRIKING tomorrow and will be in work as usual, i am one of only 30 people out of a staff of 130 people who will be in tomorrow working as much as possible as normal. i don't like the fact i will be a little worse off for it and my pension not quiet as shiney as it was once meant to be, but i will just have to swallow it and get on with the job. I do however find it hard to sit and watch/read/see people make comments about us being ungrateful, whingey drop outs who want soemthing for nothing off the hard working public. i would say don't pass judgement on us until you've actually done our job, it might actually change your perspective. Good points there Rich. We all know there are wasters in public service and that includes some of the highly overpaid managers that have come in from the private sector in recent years who have no idea about the service they enter and frankly end up making stupid cuts that most can see is simply about justifying their inflated salaries. And that Chesterfield is what is distorting the average pay in the public service nowadays. We also know the ridiculous sums of money that can be made in the private sector. I never use the word "earn" because how you can ever say someone, like a trader, paid £1m a year is worth 40 times more than say someone, like a nurse, on £25k a year? How would a banker face life and death situations each working day - are we really saying his share dealing is 40 times more important in the pay scales -so he can buy the most expensive champagne and luxury/preformance cars? Let's not forget, the root cause of the financial problems we have was caused by the private sector - the 'money houses', aided and abetted by weak politicians - the buggers you and I elect, not appoint. That said, it has been a real eye opener since I changed from the public sector to the private sector - being your own boss and using the expertise gained working in the public sector was the best thing I ever did. But then when I have to deal with the public sector it can be like stone and blood as I have been seen as jumping ship - the us and them divide which I see coming through in this thread, because we have all been hit one way or another. I'm still smarting over an endowment that didn't get near to covering the mortgage sum insured, messed up by guess who... Frankly I think the *ankers have got away with daylight robbery on massive scales and yet they are still awarding themselves lottery money bonus - they are the ones that have caused the financial crises that should be slammed, not your average private/public sector worker who end up being the victims in all of this. The fact that 77% of the public sector did not vote for the strike action confirms to me a least that the vast majority are resigned to taking a hit on their pensions in just the same way the average private sector worker has seen their pension (savings) being taken away - no guesses by who Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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