lucky

[TT350]

I just typed out a very large post about the events in Manchester last night when suddenly the forum changed from mobile to desktop. It's done that a couple of times now when writing a lengthy post.

 

Anyway...

 

I was at the scene last night, more or less. I'd just passed the arena heading away from the city and heard it. I'd barely gotten past the junction just outside the arena and I had the windows down and sunroof open because it was a really nice warm night and I love the smell of the air on summer nights.

 

If it had happened a couple of years ago I could very well have been on foot as me and the ex always walked past the arena to go to her apartment on Mirabel street if we'd have been out at the Odeon in the Printworks or we'd been out for a meal.

 

Just goes to show, it can happen to any of us at any time.

 

Thoughts are with the victims and their families.

 

This Google maps screenshot shows how close I was. I was just on the main street (yellow roads on the maps screenshot) and crossed the junction and on Bury new Road.

 

Mirabel street highlighted too.

 

 

Edited May 23, 2017 by TT350

[Jetpilot]

Seems its almost part of modern life these days, i would struggle to express my feelings towards anyone caught up in this, least of all the words to justify my hatred of the perpetrators.

[Ekona]

I was looking to pick up some tickets to one of Grande's shows as well but they all sold out too fast.

 

In terms of an attack, it couldn't have been a more perfect target. Heartbreaking to see images on social media of family desperately searching for their loved ones

[Jay84]

When it happened at the Eagles Of Death Metal concert in France it was bad, but children were at this one. My daughters have Little Mix tickets (they're 6&8 so have no taste yet) for November. If I stop them going the terrorists win, if they go something could happen. Scary times.

[Ekona]

Oi, Little Mix are ace! Apart from their current album which admittedly is terrible, but the last few have been superb.

 

I can understand your concern, I really can. Not an easy decision, but personally I feel we shouldn't change anything we do to let the b*stards win. Easy for me to say though, I don't have kids.

[Jay84]

My thoughts exactly (the not changing anything bit, as an aging rocker LM aren't my thing...although they're fit lol). I'm not going but the wife is. Still, November is a while away yet.

[Olly350z]

With election day looming, and waking up to the horrific events last night, I find myself sitting here thinking "Whats the point, nothing changes?"

 

No matter who we vote for, we wont see change. We wont see a difference that we could look at, we could feel. It'll all stay the same. The only thing we're guaranteed is more empty promises and miss information. And then we'll hear that he was a disillusioned young man, who'd been radicalised like its something normal. We'll hear that he was known, but they couldn't act because of his human rights.

 

All the time, just like everytime, forgetting those affected. The innocent. Those who like myself, couldn't honestly give a monkeys who you are or where you're from. Because at the end of the day, we're all the same.

 

Not trying to start a political debate or anything, just the thoughts of a very confused chap which this world has his head in his hands most of the time..

[coldel]

My personal thoughts Olly are that you shouldn't not vote for a political party due to these sorts of acts. Unfortunately the reality of the world as we know it is that as much is spent on intelligence gathering and implementation, it's simply impossible to stop some of these acts of murder and has nothing to do with inaction due to human rights, in fact the law in the UK allows for pre-charge detention which can be extended based on judges approval. All this is relatively new law passed by governments implementing change in the last decade as a response to the growing new threat of home-grown terrorism.

 

But I am with you on a humanitarian point, that I just despair at the human race's constant need to wipe ourselves out in the name of gain - whether its political, financial or otherwise.

[Jetpilot]

in fact the law in the UK allows for pre-charge detention which can be extended based on judges approval. All this is relatively new law passed by governments implementing change in the last decade as a response to the growing new threat of home-grown terrorism..

 

We have known hate preachers walking the streets in the UK so sorry but that law is a farce, hell we couldnt even manage to deport Abu Hamza to face up to the atrocities he carried out without a massive battle, lets be honest, there isnt enough of a deterrent.

[coldel]

Completely different scenarios though - Abu Hamza couldnt be deported not because of our deportation laws but because he would in effect be sent to a country that would likely run a false trial and lead to execution. That is against human rights (putting aside what a hateful person he was) and what was restricting the UKs pursuit of a deportation for so long along with the mistakes made by our then Home Secretary a certain TM. He spent a long time in prison whilst that process was going through the motions.

 

The anti-terrorism act was copied by both the US and Australia and has been criticised for being too draconian by many areas.

[Ekona]

It's not the ones walking around preaching hate that I'm worried about, it's the ones that aren't.

[Paddy78]

It's not the ones walking around preaching hate that I'm worried about, it's the ones that aren't.

 

Totally agree. They are the hardest to track and prevent from carrying out attacks like this. I seem to remember one of the 7/7 bombers being a mild mannered school teacher that no one believed could be capable. There's no way to defend against that kind of person.

[Jetpilot]

I am aware of that and it wasnt out laws, it was the eu courts blocking the deportation.

 

I am not looking to get into an argument, but the laws are not tough enough, that has to be pretty obvious with such events and whilst you may not be worried about the hate preachers, you should, its these people that are radicalising these men and imho taking the p*ss out of this country. As we see with just about every incident, all these people are known, most of them have priors, just get rid of them.

[Paddy78]

I am aware of that and it wasnt out laws, it was the eu courts blocking the deportation.

 

I am not looking to get into an argument, but the laws are not tough enough, that has to be pretty obvious with such events and whilst you may not be worried about the hate preachers, you should, its these people that are radicalising these men and imho taking the p*ss out of this country. As we see with just about every incident, all these people are known, most of them have priors, just get rid of them.

 

Get rid of them? Where / how? That sounds a lot like the views of the people who are inciting hatred the other way. What makes your statement any better than theirs?

[Jay84]

It's not the ones walking around preaching hate that I'm worried about, it's the ones that aren't.

 

Totally agree. They are the hardest to track and prevent from carrying out attacks like this. I seem to remember one of the 7/7 bombers being a mild mannered school teacher that no one believed could be capable. There's no way to defend against that kind of person.

Agree, how do you stop/target someone who, looks like a normal civilian. That being, said, don't choose to live in this country, then preach hate about our ways and laws, in that respect I get where Jetpilot is coming from. If the hate preachers aren't carrying out the atrocities, but they are adequately inciting others to, that makes them as bad in my book.

[coldel]

I am worried about hate preachers at no point above did I say I wasn't, and the guy in question spent years behind bars and was deported as soon as the UK negotiated a fair trial in the country he was being deported to, I am not sure what more could have been done by government apart from getting their paperwork in order and losing a couple of years in terms of the deportation date. It wasn't the EU blocking deportation it was the European Court of Human Rights which is independent of the EU. Unfortunately so much of cases like this are misreported by the press which leads to the views expressed by Olly (and thats not your fault either)

 

Just 'getting rid' is not legitimate. If we act in an irrational way ignoring international law that makes us as bad as them. In fact it plays straight into the hands of these people who then hold the UK up as anti-islamic and an enemy of the religion. We have to do it right, and as said we have some of the toughest laws in the world on this.

[Ekona]

Real hate preachers are very few and far between. Sure, we know Abu Hamza, but who else? No-one that I can think of, and certainly no-one in the last few years since ISIS took over from Al Qaeda in being the biggest concern for terrorism.

 

We can't just jail people because they've said a couple of dodgy things, else you'll quickly find yourself put in prison under the same laws.

[Jetpilot]

I am aware of that and it wasnt out laws, it was the eu courts blocking the deportation.

 

I am not looking to get into an argument, but the laws are not tough enough, that has to be pretty obvious with such events and whilst you may not be worried about the hate preachers, you should, its these people that are radicalising these men and imho taking the p*ss out of this country. As we see with just about every incident, all these people are known, most of them have priors, just get rid of them.

 

Get rid of them? Where / how? That sounds a lot like the views of the people who are inciting hatred the other way. What makes your statement any better than theirs?

 

There is a reason for my hatred, they are KILLING innocent people, children ffs, at a pop concert, does that really need justifying? I wander how you would feel if you lost a relative last night!!

[Ekona]

But who is they? The actual terrorists sure, but they're all going suicide attacks these days, so who is left?

 

You may have many people who sympathise with a terrorist cause, but would never dream of carrying something out. Should they be jailed for their thoughts and inactions?

[Jetpilot]

Real hate preachers are very few and far between. Sure, we know Abu Hamza, but who else? No-one that I can think of, and certainly no-one in the last few years since ISIS took over from Al Qaeda in being the biggest concern for terrorism.

 

We can't just jail people because they've said a couple of dodgy things, else you'll quickly find yourself put in prison under the same laws.

 

Anjem Choudry, 5 years jail, probably out in 2.5, jeez you can get more for speeding!

[Jetpilot]

But who is they? The actual terrorists sure, but they're all going suicide attacks these days, so who is left?

 

You may have many people who sympathise with a terrorist cause, but would never dream of carrying something out. Should they be jailed for their thoughts and inactions?

 

No not at all, i dont want to pay for a warm bed and three square a day, drop them on bear grylls pacific island.

 

Anyway, neither the time nor the place and its far too emotive a subject at this raw time.

[Ekona]

Fair enough, I'd forgotten about him. Still, he was punished for his crimes and tbh that sentence would seem reasonable to me.

[Ekona]

No not at all, i dont want to pay for a warm bed and three square a day, drop them on bear grylls pacific island.

That makes us no better than them, and then they're also free to go and do what they want surely?

 

We should hold ourselves to a higher standard.

[Paddy78]

There will always be people looking to radicalise others, removing these people from the country won't change that as access to the

I am aware of that and it wasnt out laws, it was the eu courts blocking the deportation.

 

I am not looking to get into an argument, but the laws are not tough enough, that has to be pretty obvious with such events and whilst you may not be worried about the hate preachers, you should, its these people that are radicalising these men and imho taking the p*ss out of this country. As we see with just about every incident, all these people are known, most of them have priors, just get rid of them.

 

Get rid of them? Where / how? That sounds a lot like the views of the people who are inciting hatred the other way. What makes your statement any better than theirs?

 

There is a reason for my hatred, they are KILLING innocent people, children ffs, at a pop concert, does that really need justifying? I wander how you would feel if you lost a relative last night!!

 

Lots of innocent people are being killed all over the world every day. Where are your angry posts about starving children in Africa or the people being killed by airstrikes in Syria etc. etc. No offence, but this seems like a convenient excuse for people to peddle their anti Mulsim agenda.

[Jetpilot]

but this seems like a convenient excuse for people to peddle their anti Mulsim agenda.