longsh07 Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Track day experts, I need some advice. First a minor caveat - Posting here because I generally get the best advice on this forum. While my question will apply to my 350 in future (which is why I posted in the 350 mods section) I'm actually after more general advice which could apply to any car. I took my FN2 Civic on a track day at Silverstone on Sunday and had a whale of a time chucking it around. I learnt from my mistakes with the MX5 and made sure I fitted higher temp pads (EBC YellowStuff) before I went which held up great and were consistent across both 30 minute sessions. What has happened though is I've now got a mushy pedal which I'm going to assume is from boiling the brake fluid locally at the calipers. Quite surprised by this by this as its Motul RBF600 but I know my driving was not a smooth as it could have been and I left traction control on so there may well have been extra heat build up caused by traction control using the brakes to stabilise the car. I dont think the pads are glazed as they still bite but it just takes a longer pedal push. Regardless I'm going to bleed the brakes and inspect everything properly at the weekend and see how they feel afterwards. The real question is what options do I have to keep my brakes cool and prevent the fluid from boiling? (The easy answer of slow the F down is not an option but I'm open to learning better braking techniques). I know I can run some ducting to the disc centre to help cool the entire disc but are there other solutions? Do BBK's aid with cooling because of the larger monoblock calipers? What about discs? Do 2 piece discs cool better than regular 1 piece discs? And do 'heat treated' 'cryo treated' discs actually make a blind bit of difference? What about the 350's Brembos? How do they cope with excessive heat from track driving? Anyone boiled their brake fluid? Anything other advice you can give is welcome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrLizard Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 have you got braided lines to the calipers? worth investing in, in addition the best way to cool the brakes is from ducting air into the veins in the middle of the disc, however getting air to the back surface of the disc can be very useful as well. I cant speak for civic's but certainly a BBK helped with laptimes and longevity of sessions for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longsh07 Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share Posted March 8, 2016 Have done braided brake lines on both cars. Civic has goodridge lines, OEM discs, and YellowStuff pads. 350 has hosetechnik lines, OEM discs (which need changing at next pad swap), and Hawk Ceramic pads (which will need to be changed if/when I do a track day in the 350). In addition the best way to cool the brakes is from ducting air into the veins in the middle of the disc That's what I'd aim to do if possible and I go down the ducting route. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobPhoboS Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Do what they did with the Quattro in the early days of group B - get water spraying onto the discs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longsh07 Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share Posted March 8, 2016 Do what they did with the Quattro in the early days of group B - get water spraying onto the discs As cool as that sounds I'd want to drive the cars on the road too and that might be a little sketchy in winter I'm not sure "I need to keep my brakes hot or they will freeze" is a legitimate excuse for speeding. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrLizard Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Get some heat paint and a laser temp and monitor what's going on, you. Might find an additional cool down lap enough to bring them back - or a more durable pad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longsh07 Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share Posted March 8, 2016 Get some heat paint and a laser temp and monitor what's going on, you. Might find an additional cool down lap enough to bring them back - or a more durable pad? I think the pads and discs are fine. They still bite hard its just the pedal has gone spongy. I didn't notice it until the drive home and the drive to work the next day. I mean bleeding the brakes might be all it needs to bring it back Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobPhoboS Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Also worth checking the US forums for this kind of thing as they tend to have even higher ambient temperatures, which I'm sure doesn't help. Try pasting this into google: site:my350z.com brake cooling & just change the wording to what you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT4 Zed Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 All the above advice are good but I think you need to address each issue that can cuase long brake pedal step by step. - pad fade: this is exactly what it means. Your pads are not up to the job or overused past their operating temperature. Get the right pad for the job. - disc fade: the disc become to hot and can't stop you. Typically if poor braking technique, very aggressive pad, poor disc quality, disc at end of its life, or just overuse. Brake cooling helps with this. - fluid fade: yep boiling the fluid from either things above. SS lines and racing fluid helps. I'm also assuming you did not have some air in the system before. This can give a reasonable pedal for road use and on track go long on you and you blame other things for nothing. Off the above the long pedal will come back with cooling but not with boiled fluids which will need full rebleed to get rid of the air. I think you need to invest in a better pad if you are going to be doing more track days, you need to manage you time out there less laps sessions to allow cooling of brakes and engine. I hope you have OEM disc or OE replacement like pagid as some of the replacements are made of poor quality metal. Invest in driving tuition. Majority of brake fade is down to driver technique. Consider cooling ducts and even a BBK when you have addressed the above and now exceed the OEM setup. A BBK is only better than OEM as a bigger heat sink so it resists fade better but it will still fade if you sit on the brakes. Don't also forget good tyres, good alignment and even pressures, weight saving helps with braking so don't look past these. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZMANALEX Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Swop out your fluid for starters. Decent fluid, lines and pads are critical. Expensive rotors and BBK should really not be required for your applications. Proper bed in + warm up laps + cool down laps is a given every time you go on / off track. It is amazing how, when you feel the pedal getting a bit soft, say after 8 laps, that a couple of proper cool down laps bring the temps right back into check. However if you are expecting endurance type of brake efficiency then you will have to think again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longsh07 Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share Posted March 8, 2016 - pad fade: this is exactly what it means. Your pads are not up to the job or overused past their operating temperature. Get the right pad for the job. - disc fade: the disc become to hot and can't stop you. Typically if poor braking technique, very aggressive pad, poor disc quality, disc at end of its life, or just overuse. Brake cooling helps with this. - fluid fade: yep boiling the fluid from either things above. SS lines and racing fluid helps. I'm also assuming you did not have some air in the system before. This can give a reasonable pedal for road use and on track go long on you and you blame other things for nothing. - Pads (EBC YellowStuff) were consistent all day so I'm happy the pads are up to the job. The paint hasn't discoloured either. Pads were replaced in about Nov/Dec last year, about a month after I brought the car - Running OEM Honda discs fitted at same time as discs. - Could it be then that the pads are not transferring enough heat to the disc which then causes the caliper (and thus fluid) to get excessively hot? If so, is that discs to pads causing this? No, no air in the system to my knowledge. Japex fitted the discs, pads, and lines for me so and I'm pretty sure they use a pressure bleeding system. Pedal was sharp and instant on the road. Off the above the long pedal will come back with cooling but not with boiled fluids which will need full rebleed to get rid of the air. Brakes still stop well but the pedal requires a longer press to achieve the same force as before the track day. I'm thinking a rebleed will solve my problem but I was wondering how to prevent this in future. I think you need to invest in a better pad if you are going to be doing more track days, you need to manage you time out there less laps sessions to allow cooling of brakes and engine. I hope you have OEM disc or OE replacement like pagid as some of the replacements are made of poor quality metal. Invest in driving tuition. Majority of brake fade is down to driver technique. Consider cooling ducts and even a BBK when you have addressed the above and now exceed the OEM setup. A BBK is only better than OEM as a bigger heat sink so it resists fade better but it will still fade if you sit on the brakes. Pads - Potentially yes if they are not transferring enough heat to the disc. Performance wise I thought they were spot on. Discs - Yes, new OEM discs in the last few months. Tuition/driving - Something I'm considering for the next time I go on track as I know where are a number of areas I'd like to improve, braking being one of them. Ducts - This was my first thought as a quick fix. BBK - Good to know, I was wondering if a larger caliper would dissipate more heat. Don't also forget good tyres, good alignment and even pressures, weight saving helps with braking so don't look past these. Running Yokohama AD08R's. They were brilliant. Not had an alignment done so something to think about. Weight wise as I tend to use the Civic daily I dont want to start stripping it out or anything but I could look at temporarily removing the rear seats or something. I've no spare wheel and I dont keep any junk in the car. I'll boot my passenger out next time Swop out your fluid for starters. Thats my plan for the weekend. I'm using Motul RBF600 anyway but flushing the old out with some new cant hurt. Decent fluid, lines and pads are critical. I'm happy with my line and fluid, pads I went for the yellows because of the R90 regs so maybe that choice introduced the problem by not allowing them to transfer heat to the disc as effectively. Expensive rotors and BBK should really not be required for your applications. Would be a last resort as again its supposed to be a daily driven car that I can track now and again without worrying about it. Proper bed in + warm up laps + cool down laps is a given every time you go on / off track. It is amazing how, when you feel the pedal getting a bit soft, say after 8 laps, that a couple of proper cool down laps bring the temps right back into check. Agreed. When I tracked the MX5 with greenstuff pads I had to slow down for a couple of laps to let the brakes cool before they came back up. This time in the civic with yellowstuff I didnt have that fade but I've now got this spongy pedal which makes me think its boiled fluid. However if you are expecting endurance type of brake efficiency then you will have to think again. I knew there would always be a compromise somewhere with trying to own a jack-of-all-trades car but as long as I understand where they are and what to do about each issue I can, replace parts or adapt my setup and/or driving to get the most of out of the car Thanks for all the input! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fake ben taylor Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Im gonna be honest here. Ebc yellowstuff are a baaad pad that cant handle trackwork very well so if these were fine and the flyid gave up first, my money is on old fluid, or water in the fluid or air. But either way the pads on that setup should have been first to die. For a cheaper and equally as good brake fluid, atd typ200/superblue is amazing and is all I run on track 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longsh07 Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share Posted March 8, 2016 Im gonna be honest here. Ebc yellowstuff are a baaad pad that cant handle trackwork very well so if these were fine and the flyid gave up first, my money is on old fluid, or water in the fluid or air. But either way the pads on that setup should have been first to die. For a cheaper and equally as good brake fluid, atd typ200/superblue is amazing and is all I run on track What makes you say the yellowstuff pads are so bad? I know they won't be as good as a proper track pad but in my situation I need a pad that will work on the road primarily but can withstand some abuse for the handful of track seasons the car sees. Have heard good things about superblue so might try that next but I've got another unopened bottle of RBF600 so I might as well use that for the time being. Sent from my HTC One M9 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobPhoboS Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 (edited) Well I predominantly drive on the road (not commuting, b-road fun) and will be slinging some track days here and there, I've just bought CL RC5+ pads and will post up on this. I've gone from Yellowstuff, DS2500 and once they arrive RC5+ (standard skimmed discs, ss lines, TYP200 fluid). I thought the YS pads were fine for the road, they didn't let me down I just wanted to try out others. Edited March 8, 2016 by RobPhoboS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brillomaster Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 conversely, we run ebc yellows on all our bmw track cars, and find them absolutely fine - no fade at all even on standard rotors. i'd be surprised if you'd need anything more than what you've got on a civic - if your pedal has gone a bit spongy then I think replacing fluid will sort it. Cant recommend ATE type 200 fluid highly enough, cheap and we've never had a problem with boiling fluids since having it fitted. Also were you doing a full 30 minute session on track? that's a lot for brakes to take, we only limit ourselves to around 15 mins on track and always do a cooldown lap before coming in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GT4 Zed Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 (edited) Glad you found the yellow stuff consistent and it maybe the case considering the civic is lighter but I wouldn't rate them as track pads. Maybe a half decent fast road and occasional track pad st best. Secondly I never assume because it was done by x or y it was done correctly. It takes a tiny amount of air to create a mushy pedal on the track. i don't get what you mean by the pads not transferring heat. Brakes work by friction between pad and disc so far as the 2 come together it should it will generate heat and brake. The disc is always getting cooled by rotating and the suction effect of the vanes so heat flows from the pads to the disc and dissipates unless if you have hot gases traping between the disc and pads or the pad is completely glazed from going beyond its temp range and is just like glass with poor pedal feel. This is always a pad problem or going beyond the pads operating range. The temp band means nothing as glazing occurs very rapidly and the pad surface vitrifies since the heat is not spread to the whole system. If it did then glazing will not occur as the heat is radiated away rather than focus on the pad to disc interface. As adviced, troubleshoot methodically. Fluid change. Inspect pads and possibly swap for better, have enough cooling down time the finally Improve you braking technique. I use motul RBF660 and never boiled it. Edited March 8, 2016 by GT4 Zed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 Yellowstuff are very good on lighter cars (I've run them on the VXR and MR2 with success) but on heavier stuff they can give up quite easily. If it were me, I'd change fluid and not just another lot of the RBF600. I ran the Endless fluid in my Zed which being a ragtop weighed a fair bit, and saw some horrendous temps on track but the fluid NEVER failed at all. It's ridiculously expensive, but then it's also utterly incredible so you do get what you pay for. I currently use the ATE 200 as well, which I run across the MR2 and the BMW, as well as the 911 before that. All have been tracked extensively, and I personally prefer it to the RBF600. It's not as good as the Endless stuff, but then it's 1/3 of the price. 30mins on track is excessive, both on the driver and the car unless it's specced for race stuff. If you're a heavy braker as well then that's equally not going to help. And turn the traction off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fake ben taylor Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 (edited) Ive always done 30min session in my track cars with zero mechanical sympathy. Ebc pads couldnt cut it at all, and ive seen too many stories of friction material comong detached from backing plate. In fact I once nearly did an hour session as I was chasing docwra in his z lol Previous track car was a clio 172 so lighter than the civic. Mintex do some good road and occasional abuse pads, carbon lorraine are awesome, Im on performance frictio 01 atm which are amaxing but not sure theyre as better than carbon lorraine as the price tag suggests so ill be going back to cl pads. 30min sessions are fine if the brakes can handle it nut ANY organic pad (all ebc, the horror that are ds2500) cant do this. You need a carbon or metal based compound. Also these good track compounds give good cold bite whereas organic track pads dont. Only trade off with metal pads is thsyre a bit noisy Edited March 8, 2016 by fake ben taylor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blobbish Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 All above really. I always do a cooldown lap and NEVER have the handbrake engaged when parked or waiting. I always leave the car in gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longsh07 Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share Posted March 8, 2016 conversely, we run ebc yellows on all our bmw track cars, and find them absolutely fine - no fade at all even on standard rotors. i'd be surprised if you'd need anything more than what you've got on a civic - if your pedal has gone a bit spongy then I think replacing fluid will sort it. Cant recommend ATE type 200 fluid highly enough, cheap and we've never had a problem with boiling fluids since having it fitted. Also were you doing a full 30 minute session on track? that's a lot for brakes to take, we only limit ourselves to around 15 mins on track and always do a cooldown lap before coming in. Good to know about YS pads and the fluid Yes - 30 minute sessions. It was a novice track taster day so it consists of 2 warm up/familiarisation laps, about 25 minutes of actually driving and 1 cool down lap. I've only ever booked onto these days just so that I'm not over doing it. Plus if issues do crop up I know I haven't wasted loads of money on a full day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longsh07 Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share Posted March 8, 2016 Secondly I never assume because it was done by x or y it was done correctly. It takes a tiny amount of air to create a mushy pedal on the track. That's fair enough. I didn't do the work myself so I cant say but given what I felt prior to the track day Im confident there was no air in the system. i don't get what you mean by the pads not transferring heat. Brakes work by friction between pad and disc so far as the 2 come together it should it will generate heat and brake. The disc is always getting cooled by rotating and the suction effect of the vanes so heat flows from the pads to the disc and dissipates unless if you have hot gases traping between the disc and pads or the pad is completely glazed from going beyond its temp range and is just like glass with poor pedal feel. This is always a pad problem or going beyond the pads operating range. The temp band means nothing as glazing occurs very rapidly and the pad surface vitrifies since the heat is not spread to the whole system. If it did then glazing will not occur as the heat is radiated away rather than focus on the pad to disc interface. Something I read online suggests that because of the proximity of the pad to the disc (when not engaged) heat is radiated from the pad to the disc which is then cooled by the vents. Obviously when the two come in contact friction=heat which must be transferred. I was wondering if either the pad is bad at transferring the heat to the disc (which would mean more heat in the caliper) or if the disc isnt accepting the heat as readily as it could. Just a thought really. Probably barking up the wrong tree. As adviced, troubleshoot methodically. Fluid change. Inspect pads and possibly swap for better, have enough cooling down time the finally Improve you braking technique. I use motul RBF660 and never boiled it. Will do - Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longsh07 Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share Posted March 8, 2016 Yellowstuff are very good on lighter cars (I've run them on the VXR and MR2 with success) but on heavier stuff they can give up quite easily. If it were me, I'd change fluid and not just another lot of the RBF600. I ran the Endless fluid in my Zed which being a ragtop weighed a fair bit, and saw some horrendous temps on track but the fluid NEVER failed at all. It's ridiculously expensive, but then it's also utterly incredible so you do get what you pay for. I currently use the ATE 200 as well, which I run across the MR2 and the BMW, as well as the 911 before that. All have been tracked extensively, and I personally prefer it to the RBF600. It's not as good as the Endless stuff, but then it's 1/3 of the price. 30mins on track is excessive, both on the driver and the car unless it's specced for race stuff. If you're a heavy braker as well then that's equally not going to help. And turn the traction off! Sounds like ATE 200 would suit the Civic with its YS pads but will shop around a bit more thoroughly when I decide to take the 350 out on track. To be honest I probably abuse the Civic more than I should have done but that was kind of the point. I wanted to find out what its limits were I should go next. Its all a learning experience at the end of the day and if anything I've come away thinking my driving is what needs work next, not the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longsh07 Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share Posted March 8, 2016 Ive always done 30min session in my track cars with zero mechanical sympathy. Ebc pads couldnt cut it at all, and ive seen too many stories of friction material comong detached from backing plate. In fact I once nearly did an hour session as I was chasing docwra in his z lol Previous track car was a clio 172 so lighter than the civic. Mintex do some good road and occasional abuse pads, carbon lorraine are awesome, Im on performance frictio 01 atm which are amaxing but not sure theyre as better than carbon lorraine as the price tag suggests so ill be going back to cl pads. 30min sessions are fine if the brakes can handle it nut ANY organic pad (all ebc, the horror that are ds2500) cant do this. You need a carbon or metal based compound. Also these good track compounds give good cold bite whereas organic track pads dont. Only trade off with metal pads is thsyre a bit noisy I read the horror stories as well and even got in touch with EBC about it. Decided to give them a go to form my own opinion and I'm happy with my purchase. I can see they probably aren't the greatest pad but for my needs they are pretty spot on Appreciate your input, will probably end of avoiding EBC for the 350 anyway and going with something from PF or CL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longsh07 Posted March 8, 2016 Author Share Posted March 8, 2016 All above really. I always do a cooldown lap and NEVER have the handbrake engaged when parked or waiting. I always leave the car in gear. I remembered not to stick the handbrake on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted March 8, 2016 Share Posted March 8, 2016 I can highly recommend the PF 01 pads for the 350, combine them with their 2-piece discs and it's an incredibly impressive setup Again, not cheap though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.