Chesterfield Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Just read this after being told about it by Tracy: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-15916384 Now, whilst I think this is a nice gesture, it makes my blood boil that they have decided to deduct the money from striking workers in February in order to "ease financial pressure over the Christmas period", and taking it in a month when there is no council tax payment due. What an absolute utter joke. Those striking should take the cosequences of their actions on the chin. If that means being a days wages short for Christmas, then, tough. Hows about all the people having to take a day off themselves from private industries to care for kids, or pay for a days childcare that they weren't expecting? Can they defer payment until February when times are easier? Businesses that find themselves short on staff due to those taking a day off to look after children etc - Can they defer their rates payments for that day, or maybe defer a days corporation tax until times are bit easier? Im all for the donation to charity of money that would otherwise have been paid to those striking, but if people choose to strike, the should not be given a cotton wool blanket protecting them from the harsh reality of their actions. What of those that leave before February - will they see any penalty at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vik54 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Strike deductions are never able to be taken off the next pay day Chris - especially if a strike happens at the end of the month - they have to ensure they deduct correct amounts from the correct people. They have to ascertain who exactly did not present for work. Payrolls run earlier in Local Authorities over Xmas as it is and the January payroll is set up before Xmas even happens. So you'll find February is the first possible chance any LA will have to correctly apply deductions. This is just another examply of sensational media reporting playing to the misinformed general public Turns out Angus Council has a public holiday for St Andrews day on Wednesday so I'm unable to strike I would happily have given up a days wages though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesterfield Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 Im sorry but thats a useless excuse for a local authority to use. I suppose anyone doing overtime for a local authority in November won't get it paid until February either then eh? The other one's got bells on it. I've worked for organisation with hundreds of thousands of employees, they could work out individual wages and extra overtime, sick days, maternity, paternity, bonuses, redundancies, starters and leavers every month without fail. Personally I think it laughable about the strikes - the changes suggested are needed to support the sustainability of the pension scheme full stop. If they dont make the changes then there wont be a pot for anyone retiring from the public sector in 30 years time (if that). Ive got a private pension which other than the recent financial troubles has been doing fairly well, so I suppose I could be one of those who say Im alright Jack. We've seen taxes on banks, new higher rate taxes introduced, increases in business taxes, and they are all being introduced to cover the debts of the country, including the defecit in the public sector pension fund. How many more taxes should be introduced to pay for unsustainable pension schemes? How many more can be introduced before lots of larger businesses say enough is enough and offshore? Then what for the public sector pension fund? I think its about time the public sector realised that the ONLY thing generating money for the country is the private sector. Squeeze it too much and the public sector will find itself in a much larger mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 The whole striking thing boils my ****. Until anyone of them can give a credible alternative to the cuts, they can FRO and suck it up like the private sector have had to for the last few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesterfield Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 We already know what the Union leaders suggest as a credible alternative. Tax the banks and tax the "rich". They are the ones who got us into this mess, so they can get us out. Have you read the items of "literature" put out by the unions when discussing the pension reforms - they will either make you laugh or cry. They are so far removed from actual real life its not even remotely funny. What is funny is the ammount of people following what these union leaders suggest by striking, while all the time they have sizeable private pensions themselves as they know full well the public ones are unsustainable - but if they roll over and acknowledge the changes are needed, then they aren't going to be a union leader for much longer and have the salary to fund those private pension schemes. The whole thing could be a sketch from the Beano. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoogyRev Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 The whole striking thing boils my ****. Until anyone of them can give a credible alternative to the cuts, they can FRO and suck it up like the private sector have had to for the last few years. A big +1 to that! I work in the private sector, don't get a pension, not health care..etc. If I said to my boss I am going on strike he would tell me to not bother coming back. Having worked in the Public sector and now have a more than a few clients in it... I really don't think they know how good they have it. A lot of them are lazy, utterly useless and should not be in the positions they are in ...over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesterfield Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 Our company has helped the local council for a period of time. It took us two years of constant badgering for them to finally give us the opportunity to help them. We saved them over £100k in our first year of assisting. They have since decided to jon forces with another council and purchase in a different manner using a different public scheme. They may as well take that £100k and burn it in the strike fires now, but theres no telling them. The council they have joined forces with has apparently been red flagged for the 3rd time for failing to balance their balance sheet, and spent another £25k in audit fees. Here we are actually working in the private sector helping a local authority actually save money, and they are just pi**ing it up the wall. The worst bit is that we have two offices within a council run complex that has the electricity and gas recharged to us, and I know full well that Ill be able to get cheaper rates than they will sign up to, yet they will expect me to pay them! Ill be posing some very tricky questions to the procurement managers of the councils when that day arrives I can tell you. Probably via the local paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Just watching TV, some school where the headmistress has never been on strike for 36 years is sitting there saying 'the government aren't listening' etc so she is now striking. I am trying hard to see her point of view, it must have taken a lot for her to do this, but I think the lines that are spun by union leaders to these people are so far out of touch with reality that it is sad, that someone that experienced, falls for it. Yes, headmistress is right, the government aren't funding schools enough, it isn't funding many areas, but thats life as it is at the moment. I have been made redundant twice in two years, im in my fourth job, a couple of times i only managed to find another job with weeks to spare before my notice period ran out - life is tough headmistress, you should be chuffed you have sat it out in one job for thirty odd years As for the initial post, I think the fact that payroll changes take months to be checked illustrates perfectly how badly mismanaged and how inefficient the public sector engine ticks over it really needs a shake down, less money thrown at it and better working practices implemented. I remember working in the civil service as a 19 year old on my year out from uni, even back then I was gobsmacked at how badly that was run as a business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vik54 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Just shows then you have no real knowledge of the utter crap and bureaucracy and constraints of working in the public sector then. Private sector maybe can run extra payrolls at the drop of a hat - I don't know as I haven't worked in the private sector since I was a student - it certainly can't happen in LA. Anyone working O/T on Nov 30th will see it on their January pay. To apply strike deductions systems on top of the usual Xmas & January payrolls with the staffing constraints that go hand in hand with Xmas period would cost the councils even more. By not processing until January they are ensuring the least extra cost to the public. I love the way there is this assumption that Public sector workers expect something for nothing and to get through this crisis without putting in that bit extra effort. This is a very simple view of what goes on in LA - nobody expects this. Totally agree there needs to be changes to ensure sustainability - however to apply those changes accross the board regardless of placing on payscales is simply wrong. Im sorry but thats a useless excuse for a local authority to use. I suppose anyone doing overtime for a local authority in November won't get it paid until February either then eh? The other one's got bells on it. I've worked for organisation with hundreds of thousands of employees, they could work out individual wages and extra overtime, sick days, maternity, paternity, bonuses, redundancies, starters and leavers every month without fail. Personally I think it laughable about the strikes - the changes suggested are needed to support the sustainability of the pension scheme full stop. If they dont make the changes then there wont be a pot for anyone retiring from the public sector in 30 years time (if that). Ive got a private pension which other than the recent financial troubles has been doing fairly well, so I suppose I could be one of those who say Im alright Jack. We've seen taxes on banks, new higher rate taxes introduced, increases in business taxes, and they are all being introduced to cover the debts of the country, including the defecit in the public sector pension fund. How many more taxes should be introduced to pay for unsustainable pension schemes? How many more can be introduced before lots of larger businesses say enough is enough and offshore? Then what for the public sector pension fund? I think its about time the public sector realised that the ONLY thing generating money for the country is the private sector. Squeeze it too much and the public sector will find itself in a much larger mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vik54 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 So you do understand the ridiculous amount of red tape that there is - when procurement processes are so fecked why on earth would you think that payroll was any different?! don't get me started on procurement crap - now that boils my P*ss Our company has helped the local council for a period of time. It took us two years of constant badgering for them to finally give us the opportunity to help them. We saved them over £100k in our first year of assisting. They have since decided to jon forces with another council and purchase in a different manner using a different public scheme. They may as well take that £100k and burn it in the strike fires now, but theres no telling them. The council they have joined forces with has apparently been red flagged for the 3rd time for failing to balance their balance sheet, and spent another £25k in audit fees. Here we are actually working in the private sector helping a local authority actually save money, and they are just pi**ing it up the wall. The worst bit is that we have two offices within a council run complex that has the electricity and gas recharged to us, and I know full well that Ill be able to get cheaper rates than they will sign up to, yet they will expect me to pay them! Ill be posing some very tricky questions to the procurement managers of the councils when that day arrives I can tell you. Probably via the local paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Good to see your posts Vik, I imagine there are lots of nonsense going on and even as a teenager without a clue how to run a business if I could see what they were doing in the civil service was almost schoolboy style compared to my weekend job in McDonalds which is a fantastically efficient company - surely, surely the answer is not to keep draining the already empty government coffers and to actually create a system that is better managed and financial astute. Striking makes no difference, there is no money to give I know that's easy to say, and the answer is probably 'too much red tape' etc but it has to change sometime. Something has to change. A good start is the unions who are always backward looking than forward shaping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK350Z Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Any don't forget all us private sector bods face a NI hike next year when that god-awful NEST scheme starts! 8%/3% employee/employer will be the minimum contribution for all. So if you only contribute 3% now, your going to be (effectively) taking a 5% wage cut from next autumn I think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesterfield Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 As per coldels post, if it takes this long to make payrol adjustments, it demonstrates how totally inefficient the public sector is. I see its possible to get overtime payments into the next pay run, but strike deductions take an extra month. Exactly how difficult can it be to adjust a payrol and mae deductions. Although our company only has 14 people to pay, if an adjustment needs to be made for an employee, it takes seconds. A payrol team or even just two people could make the necessary adjustments to payrol in a day for thousands of employees. Trying to sugest it takes extra time and doing it later to save money is also laughable. Why shouldn't the changes be made across all pay scales? Surely you dont expect those on higher pay scales to sacrifice a larger amount of their pension to support those on lower salaries? If the transition is made to average salary schemes then it makes no difference that everyone has the same percentages applied. The problem with the public sector is that exact point of view. Someone else should contribute more, in order to provide greater benefits to those lower down. I guess they are the same people bemoaning the "rich" who clearly should be paying more, because clearly 26% corporation tax, followed by 50% income tax, 12.8% employers NI, 11% employees NI, and removal of personal allowance between 100 and 113k resulting in effective income tax rate of 60% clearly isn't enough. Then in order to contribute to a private pension scheme that pays the same results as even a basic public sector scheme they would have to cough up another 25%. Surely they can cough up a bit more in order to prop up public sector pensions for another decade in the hope that the next round of public sector workers can actually be bothered to research the nuts and bolts of why the schemes are totally unsustainable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris`I Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Any don't forget all us private sector bods face a NI hike next year when that god-awful NEST scheme starts! 8%/3% employee/employer will be the minimum contribution for all. So if you only contribute 3% now, your going to be (effectively) taking a 5% wage cut from next autumn I think! Thought you could opt out of NEST? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesterfield Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 Employees can opt out. Employers can't. So its added about £20k a year to our costs as a small ish business per year by 2017, regardless. Guess Ill be called a capitalist pig if I try and make more money to cover those costs and dont just suck it up along with all the others. Im also guessing insurance companies will just suck up these extra costs too and they wont stick it onto the premiums right... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarty Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Ive worked in the NHS for over 15 years. I now work in a pfi hospital for a large international company. I think its absolutely disgusting how the nursing staff have been treated over the years. Dont think that the nurses are taking the threat of strike action lightly. The nurses ive spoken to are going through hell, even thinking about striking. I really dont think most of the public know what nurses go through on an average day, it must be the most thankless job out there. Finally what makes it worse is that those in power know nurses probably wont strike no matter how much @*!# they fling at them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesterfield Posted November 28, 2011 Author Share Posted November 28, 2011 Asking public sector workers reardless of position to make alterations to pension contributions and schemes so that they are financially viable is not flinging @*!# at them. NHS staff pay between 5% and 8.5% of salary into pension. They are suggesting an increase of 3.2%, and those earning less than £15,000 have no increase. Employers (NHS) pays 14%. They are nurses, and by god they do a great job that we are all thankful for - but they (or the ones in the union paid to interpret this for them) need to understand that unless they make changes, they wont have a pension at all. The NHS pension fund stands at around £1.6 Billion. If no changes are made, at the rate its being depleted compared to the input - it will stand at only £150 Million by 2016. I guess the private sector can just be taxed a "bit more" to cover the extra £1.45 Billion? In all seriousness, the public sector needs to wake up and realise the very real and very large disaster looming for the entire country if they do not accept pension reforms as part of fixing our economic problems. People are already complaining about the class divides becoming larger. Wait and see what happens when the public sector completely wreck the economy by being so blinkered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK350Z Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 Ive worked in the NHS for over 15 years. I now work in a pfi hospital for a large international company.I think its absolutely disgusting how the nursing staff have been treated over the years. Dont think that the nurses are taking the threat of strike action lightly. The nurses ive spoken to are going through hell, even thinking about striking. I really dont think most of the public know what nurses go through on an average day, it must be the most thankless job out there. Finally what makes it worse is that those in power know nurses probably wont strike no matter how much @*!# they fling at them! The strike is about the pensions, not the sometimes rubbish NHS management and conditions that makes (in your example) hospital staffs lives difficult. That PFI on your hospital isn't helping the country one iota either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuarty Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Ive worked in the NHS for over 15 years. I now work in a pfi hospital for a large international company.I think its absolutely disgusting how the nursing staff have been treated over the years. Dont think that the nurses are taking the threat of strike action lightly. The nurses ive spoken to are going through hell, even thinking about striking. I really dont think most of the public know what nurses go through on an average day, it must be the most thankless job out there. Finally what makes it worse is that those in power know nurses probably wont strike no matter how much @*!# they fling at them! The strike is about the pensions, not the sometimes rubbish NHS management and conditions that makes (in your example) hospital staffs lives difficult. That PFI on your hospital isn't helping the country one iota either. I agree that PFI is a bad idea, but if the authorities cant afford to build new hospitals, schools etc what other options are there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vik54 Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Ive worked in the NHS for over 15 years. I now work in a pfi hospital for a large international company.I think its absolutely disgusting how the nursing staff have been treated over the years. Dont think that the nurses are taking the threat of strike action lightly. The nurses ive spoken to are going through hell, even thinking about striking. I really dont think most of the public know what nurses go through on an average day, it must be the most thankless job out there. Finally what makes it worse is that those in power know nurses probably wont strike no matter how much @*!# they fling at them! The strike is about the pensions, not the sometimes rubbish NHS management and conditions that makes (in your example) hospital staffs lives difficult. That PFI on your hospital isn't helping the country one iota either. +1 I was thinking about this last night - every discussion we have about this turns into whinging about public sector systems and management - its irrelevant how things are going operationaly - this is about pensions and the lack of money to pay for them not the ridiculous bureacratic systems that currently cripple most LAs and their staff from working effectively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 I would say there has to be a link, by default? That the effect of one impacts another? If money is wasted through mismanagement and ineffectiveness and that money comes from a government pot of cash, then that government is effectively in a weaker position financially. In a weaker position financially means that there is less money to be spent on things such as say pension funds. Maybe I am seeing it in too far a simple context and am prepared to be shot down by someone who knows better but there has to be something in it. If money is being wasted, there is less of it to go around? I guess at the end of the day the country cannot sustain the public pensions pot, thats it really. I was promised pay rises and bonuses at companies I have worked at but on some occasions financially it was just impossible, I accepted it was more important that the company stay afloat with myself working for it than trying to force something financially that wasn't viable. I know its tough and the public sector isnt a glamorous place to work - but the fact is your employer is on the verge of bankruptcy it sucks, but its happened to everyone and its not a case of standing up to 'this bullying government' its the cold hard fact of life as things are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 I think what is really sad is how many people genuinely buy into the unions chatter, for instance the 'overwhelming action to strike as voted by their members' - just looked at some numbers in the press which showed 1.9m ballot papers sent out, 38% actually voted, and 75% voted yes. So this overwhelming vote was in fact out of a possible 1.9m just 540k people voted yes, less than a third... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Have you ever read the guff that comes through from the unions regarding the voting? I have, as my missus is a teacher (who voted for no strikes, btw) and it's the most one-sided piece of prose you'll ever have the misfortune to read. Shouldn't the union be putting across the facts and letting it's members make up their own minds, instead of shoving a piece of propaganda under their faces which doesn't mention anything about the reality we find ourselves in? Honestly, it's shocking stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sasha@lazytrips Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 I think one of the issues is that people get too deep into the discussion without actually thinking or talking about the basics. I am yet to hear a single so-called union "leader" propose a viable alternative to the current scheme which does not lead to inevitable bankrupcy. This is pretty much exactly the same line of thinking as those "Occupy" protesting idiots. I actually went up to some of them sitting in tents in Nottingham one evening as they were having a cup of tea and asked them if they could succinctly explain to me what they were protesting about. A bunch of them threw incoherent gibberish at me after which I asked whether they had a firm plan of action with concrete steps, dates and numbers which the government could take and they all had absolutely nothing to say. I might be stupid, but I really don't get what the point of protesting is if you have no suggestion whatsoever as to what you want to happen as a result of your protest. Having said the above, I do think the government could have been more subtle and smart in how they introduced these cuts. I don't think they have worded the changes clearly or transparently enough which meant that most of the people affected still don't really understand what the impact on them would be. What they really should have done is put a lot of simple numbers in front of people to make them understand the "why" as most of them just don't get it. e.g. (all numbers fictitious) We have a £10Bn pot for pensions sitting in a bank (now I know that it doesn't work like that as there is no actual national pension fund, but ignore that for the purpose of the exercise). Every year without any change, this pot goes down by £2Bn. We have thought through a number of scenarios and our tax and National Insurance changes are the optimal solution at the present time and they will pay for £0.7Bn of the above gap. All people on public sector pension schemes now have a choice: Option 1: You pay an extra 3.2% in pension contributions. Your pension benefits remain unchanged. Option 2: You continue paying your old contributions. All contributions to-date will remain at the previous arrangement, but your pension accrual from now on will be lower - please refer to some document which will explain how much lower it will be. Option 3: You choose to opt-out of the Public Sector Pension Programme. All contributions to-date will be honoured and you will make your own private arrangements through a private pension scheme. You will get half the standard employer contributions (in monetary terms) added to any of your own contributions. If you put it forward as a straight-forward explanation that there simply is no other way as you can't just magically make up money that doesn't exist, then maybe a few more people would wake up and smell the coffee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris`I Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 Are they stupid enough that they need a Key Facts document to go with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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