Flex Posted February 19, 2016 Author Share Posted February 19, 2016 As Dan said it is all our fault we dont band together as a nation or a global community so the governments and corporations are @rse raping us left right and centre. I blame the aliens partly, first they gave us cognitive abilities and then they just sat back and watched us play a big game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richf Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 As Dan said it is all our fault we dont band together as a nation or a global community so the governments and corporations are @rse raping us left right and centre. I blame the aliens partly, first they gave us cognitive abilities and then they just sat back and watched us play a big game. A friend of mine who works in the financial sector once worked out how much tax he actually paid , as a 40% payer with NI and adding up council tax, vat , car tax , fuel duty etc etc etc he reckoned it was 70-75% of his earnings went in tax , people have started revolutions for less ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flex Posted February 19, 2016 Author Share Posted February 19, 2016 As Dan said it is all our fault we dont band together as a nation or a global community so the governments and corporations are @rse raping us left right and centre. I blame the aliens partly, first they gave us cognitive abilities and then they just sat back and watched us play a big game. A friend of mine who works in the financial sector once worked out how much tax he actually paid , as a 40% payer with NI and adding up council tax, vat , car tax , fuel duty etc etc etc he reckoned it was 70-75% of his earnings went in tax , people have started revolutions for less ! Lets all rise up now and take the power back!! or just do nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Let's rise up! Tomorrow. Or next week, seeing as it's the weekend. Or maybe wait until the summer when it's warm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilogikal1 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 I'm probably not understanding something here but... electric is produced at a power station from mostly dirty fuels ie fossil or nuclear I do heat loss calculations for houses and as soon as I put electric heating in it, the rating just drops off terribly (these are government figures and software) so how are electric cars rated as clean ............ ok, so they don't emit emissions from the car, but they do at the point of generation Cradle to grave "footprint" is exponentially higher for EV's. But Joe Public doesn't really about their carbon footprint. EV's are considered cheaper to run (whether they are or not is actually still quite debatable, but they are seen as so by the general public). The fact they can can claim that their own personal carbon footprint (which is, at best, what any one individual actually considers) is reduced as a result is merely a justification for saving that £80 periodically, not the (pardon the pun) driving factor. Or, to putit another way; marketing - buy & run an EV, you, personally, are causing less emissions (just don't consider the bigger picture, please!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 There was a feature on the gadget show this week about ev's/hybrids, the dude did some calcs and said you would need to run the new Polo GTE for 200k miles before it started saving you money over the ice Polo due to the additional purchase price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne370Z Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 I thought most if not all EV`s had a monthly charge for the batteries? So instead of comparisons like - "It cost a few pence each night to charge up compared to £30/month in petrol", why aren`t we seeing - "It costs £30odd/month battery rental + a few pence each night to charge up compared to £30/month in petrol" .. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) I thought most if not all EV`s had a monthly charge for the batteries? So instead of comparisons like - "It cost a few pence each night to charge up compared to £30/month in petrol", why aren`t we seeing - "It costs £30odd/month battery rental + a few pence each night to charge up compared to £30/month in petrol" .. ? Only Nissan and Renault are doing monthly battery costs. My monthly cost INCLUDING battery rental and £0 deposit is £200/month. My mother in law just got a Zoe for £160 INCLUDING the battery rental and £500 deposit. For a brand new cars that come with sat nav, keyless entry, reversing camera, remote heating etc these are crazy cheap deals. My current 'fuel' cost on the Leaf is about 1.5p per mile. BMW are currently pushing the 330e on lease, I believe the best deals are £230/month + £2k deposit, which isn't far off the lease cost of a 320d. Edited February 21, 2016 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne370Z Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 But, surely, for a fair comparison you can`t just ignore the monthly cost to rent batteries and hide it in the short term monthly figure to lease the car. If you like to buy and own your own cars then once it is bought it is going to cost you £30odd every month in battery rental irrespective of whether it`s even moved off the drive and going to cost you more then each month than if you had an ICE car that you spent less than £30/month on petrol for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richf Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 But, surely, for a fair comparison you can`t just ignore the monthly cost to rent batteries and hide it in the short term monthly figure to lease the car. If you like to buy and own your own cars then once it is bought it is going to cost you £30odd every month in battery rental irrespective of whether it`s even moved off the drive and going to cost you more then each month than if you had an ICE car that you spent less than £30/month on petrol for. I dont believe you "have" to pay separately for the battery its just that its packaged that way to make consumers feel more comfortable and ally the concerns (Based on rumours) about a battery lasting 3 years and costing £8k to replace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Truth is, no-one really knows about the long term cost of EV ownership yet, myself included. We do know that, in general, an ICE will be good for 200k miles with basic servicing on modern engines. If EVs can do that too, or at least get close to it, then they're on the right track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richf Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Lots of modern engines can only get to that kind of mileage with exoensive repairs though. Replacing a motor or battery pack on aTesla for example is quick and easy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 I would imagine also very costly, i get the cheap to run concept, but to launch £70k at a Tesla and sit back and say, ah but its only costing me x per mile so is cheap is massively ironic. Even the Elon/Tesla fan club president mentions you can buy one three years old for 50% less than purchase cost, another its not actually that cheap to own/run one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Lots of modern engines can only get to that kind of mileage with exoensive repairs though. Replacing a motor or battery pack on aTesla for example is quick and easy Aside from exotica and stuff that's simply a bad design or manufacturing error, I'm struggling to think of anything. Replacing batteries might be quick and easy, but they're not going to be cheap to purchase and you can bet it'll be a dealer-only thing as they'll need special programming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) The longterm data is coming, one thing you can be sure of if a car is cheap and reliable to use Taxi services pick them up very quickly. There is a now a few taxi companies in the UK running Leaf for a few years and finding little to no issue. Quite a few cars have now done over 100K on the original battery with <10% loss of range. As battery packs get bigger the range loss will decrease, because for the same distance covered the battery has to cycle less. http://cleantechnica.com/2016/02/13/3-million-nissan-electric-taxi-miles-uk/ Nissan clearly have faith in the battery packs, they have just increased the warranty of the latest packs to 8 year and 100K. http://www.nissan.co.uk/GB/en/vehicle/electric-vehicles/leaf/electric-car-benefit/services-warranty.html The current EVs are only the start, and are all still generation one products. The Gen 2 car are coming in the next 12-18 months, and will bring a lot more range than the current cars. Car have a much longer gestation period than a phone, so we’re not going to see a sudden jump in battery capacity, but it is going to come in step wise changes. Probably the first proper gen 2 car coming to the UK is the Vauxhall Ampera-e, it should sell for <£25,000 and have a real life range of 200 miles on a charge, 0-60 in sub 7 seconds, 200bhp, 5 door. Set to start delivers in less than 12 month. The Nissan has apparently confirmed the Sunderland plant will be building the battery packs for the next generation Leaf, but so far hasn’t leaked any details about the next car – presumably so not to dent sales of the current car. http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/nissan-invests-%C2%A3265m-sunderland-battery-plant So anyone here hoping EVs will just die in the next 12-18 months will be sadly disappointed to hear it’s quite the opposite . Edited February 21, 2016 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Even the Elon/Tesla fan club president mentions you can buy one three years old for 50% less than purchase cost, another its not actually that cheap to own/run one. That's called deprecation, it applies to virtually every car on the road. I'm counting on it to get me into a 2.5 year old P85+ for £50K in roughly 10 months time (about 60% of the list price) . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 On the most part yes, but not necessarily and not 50% over that time period, so its not the cheap motoring you think it is, its pretty simple, I am sure you get it, but it just blows your main argument out the water. You should have ordered a Porsche Cayman Gt4 for around 70k, you would have made 35k, thats cheap motoring and until you can show me an ev fetching premiums, you seriously need to rethink its the future line Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumpy000 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 This post has so got out of what it originally was for. It's clear people are saving money and as above and in my first few posts. There are proof u can save money on electric leaf. And that over 5 years there has been little if not no issues with the batteries. The nissan leaf battery had a cost of £5k but also had 48 separate cells. Taxi firm in London has saved 24k in that time. People I know are buying mini jag VW Renault etc that have lost thousands of pounds in only a short time. Not many people I know keep their cars for over 200k miles or 5 years or more. So I know I'm saving in 3 years I gave my leaf. Then I will change. In 3 years till possible for another leaf if not an ice car. Who know. There are plans for the next leaf to have 200+ range. So it is the future whether u like it or not. Just look at how far mobile phones have come. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G1en Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 If your electric car does run out of battery and you are stranded on the side of a B road what are the options? Can you recharge it roadside from some sort of large battery box/ starter or is the only option to tow it to a charge point or back home? Also i am always weary of the kids of today being one for pranks when i was younger. I am fairly certain youths will find it highly amusing to unplug an electric car on charge at a charge station ot outside a house for those without a garage and then you are faced with a long wait before you can get to or from work? Now when wireless charging comes in. That could be the future Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 (edited) On the most part yes, but not necessarily and not 50% over that time period, so its not the cheap motoring you think it is, its pretty simple, I am sure you get it, but it just blows your main argument out the water. You should have ordered a Porsche Cayman Gt4 for around 70k, you would have made 35k, thats cheap motoring and until you can show me an ev fetching premiums, you seriously need to rethink its the future line Thanks for you're insight into how I should spend my £50k. I'll keep it in mind . Edited February 22, 2016 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumpy000 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 If your electric car does run out of battery and you are stranded on the side of a B road what are the options? Can you recharge it roadside from some sort of large battery box/ starter or is the only option to tow it to a charge point or back home? Also i am always weary of the kids of today being one for pranks when i was younger. I am fairly certain youths will find it highly amusing to unplug an electric car on charge at a charge station ot outside a house for those without a garage and then you are faced with a long wait before you can get to or from work? Now when wireless charging comes in. That could be the future you can lock the charge leads to your car. Yes but same with ice really. Unless u have a can of fuel. Which same as if rac has a charger on board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gumpy000 Posted February 21, 2016 Share Posted February 21, 2016 Fun fact!!! There are more charge points in the UK than there are petrol stations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Source? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flex Posted February 22, 2016 Author Share Posted February 22, 2016 http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=247&t=1394872 I've not read every reference in it, just fyi. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Good find, cheers Flex. Still can't see any direct comparison numbers, but the charge points are definitely out there in big numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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