The Don Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 Not had my Zed long and have been looking at some mods, specifically replacing the lower collector on my rev-up with a modified one (MREV2). It's said to give good mid-range gains and loads of dynos posted all over the web confirm this. HOWEVER, I also read that after a short while, the ECU will compensate and dial out any gains from N/A mods. Question is, who is right? Are these impressive dynos I'm seeing taken before the ECU has had the chance to adjust? Or are they veiled marketing by manufacturers/resellers? I'm confused Are we all wasting our time and cash on N/A breathing mods? Discuss... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P15UL T Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 basically...Yup unless you get a piggy back Ecu and get it tuned to your specific mods OH.. and welcome to the site Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIXXERUK Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 air filter and exhaust are just for noise really the plenum is about the only thing people report gains with and that is more mid range grunt i dont know if this is purely due to it moving the torque curve or real gains ? i havent seen maps from before and after Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Don Posted January 9, 2008 Author Share Posted January 9, 2008 I think there's plenty of evidence that the plenum mods give mid-range gains in both hp and tq (rather than peak gains), but are those mid-range gains permanent? It's one thing fitting a mod, dyno'ing immediately and seeing improvements, but if they then used the car for a week and ran a dyno under theoretically identical conditions would the ECU have negated the initial gains? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIXXERUK Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 yes they are permanent not just til the ecu dials them out as are the other mods, why i cant explain but everyone reports the gain it doesnt make sense to me tbh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIXXERUK Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 i understand how it increases the volume of air to the cylinders due to the oem plenum sloping but it doesnt say why the ecu doesnt dial the gains out ? http://www.350z-tech.com/zwiki/Plenum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lotuscc Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 There are lots of before and after dyno sheets on US forums and in magazines showing gains for a variety of modifications. Even if you think the ECU is adapting around your modifications it only takes a few seconds to reset it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIXXERUK Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 There are lots of before and after dyno sheets on US forums and in magazines showing gains for a variety of modifications. Even if you think the ECU is adapting around your modifications it only takes a few seconds to reset it. sorry mate i dont understand, are you suggesting that when the ecu adapts to your mods you should reset it ? it learns very fast, well as soon as the car is warm and the info is fed to it, it only runs in open loop when cold iirc all the usa sites advice a remap or reflash or piggy back ecu such as a utec Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIXXERUK Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 tdi north were going to dyno a zed with a cosworth plenum, cosworth claimed gains of 25bhp but this hasnt happened yet ? http://www.350z-uk.com/forum/viewtopic ... um&start=0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 I contacted Abbey Motorsport about an aftermarket ECU for the Z. They are trying to push the HKS F-Con at the moment. The final cost that they quoted me was well over £3k, Ive still got the quote that they sent somewhere so ill try and dig it out. My car was dynoed a few months back & made just above standard power figures & well below standard TQ figures - this was with filter,plenum,exhaust,y-pipe&cats. I was having a few problems with the cats at the time though so im hoping that now I have my new cats in my torque will return. To get the most out of N/A mods you really need an aftermarket ECU installed but at the price from Abbey + the cost of mods I would have been better off installing a supercharger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam@Z1auto.com Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 I contacted Abbey Motorsport about an aftermarket ECU for the Z. They are trying to push the HKS F-Con at the moment. The final cost that they quoted me was well over £3k, Ive still got the quote that they sent somewhere so ill try and dig it out. My car was dynoed a few months back & made just above standard power figures & well below standard TQ figures - this was with filter,plenum,exhaust,y-pipe&cats. I was having a few problems with the cats at the time though so im hoping that now I have my new cats in my torque will return. To get the most out of N/A mods you really need an aftermarket ECU installed but at the price from Abbey + the cost of mods I would have been better off installing a supercharger. we are now supplying the Haltech plug and play - more features than the F Con, and, less money haltech: http://www.z1auto.com/prodmore.asp?mode ... rodid=2843 or, there is the utec too, which works well for NA mods, and for forced induction up around 500 hp. I have the UTEC in my full NA car, and its worked great, though I am now upgrading to the Haltech in the coming weeks utec: http://www.z1auto.com/prodmore.asp?mode ... rodid=1602 and of course, both are in stock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Don Posted January 9, 2008 Author Share Posted January 9, 2008 I've still read a lot of reviews of plenum mods which make no mention of piggy back ECUs and still claim the gains. But they never seem to comment on whether the gains are permanent. If I'm looking at 500+ quid for an ECU mod on top of the N/A mods then like Ian says you might as well bite the bullet and go supercharged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam@Z1auto.com Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 to make the most of any mod on this car, the ecu should be tuned. The gains of a plenum spacer dont change over time, but the ecu tuning is great a plenum spacer, exhaust, high flow cats or test pipes would yield approximately 50 hp gain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3FIDDYZ Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 I replaced the Air Filter to a K&N typhoon and a Motordyne Plenum 5/16th then had it dyno'd, showed and felt improvment over stock, have now fitted a 5Zigen Pro-Racer zorst with a 5Zigen Y-pipe, not Dyno'd yet but I can feel improvements. Due to have a pair of Kenitix hiflow cats fitted soon so I am going to have it dyno'd to see what has changed with the zorst and then once the the Hi-Flows are fitted will run it on the Dyno again so I should be able to note what has improved or not... All the dynos will be done on the same equipment. As another test I have a group dyno booked in at another garage so will be able to see the differences between the 2 dyno settings. All I do know is that my Zed is now improved in both sound and feel so thats good enough for me!! Looking at Piggybacks just so I can make full use of the mods that I have made but its not top of the list at the moment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Don Posted January 9, 2008 Author Share Posted January 9, 2008 I accept that ECU tuning is the only option wrt getting max gains from your mods. But most people are looking for bolt-ons which will give good gains without the pain of the piggy back ECU and a tuning session on a dyno. So if plenum mods are NOT dialled out by the ECU, as you believe Adam, then can anyone explain why? What's the fundamental difference between that and e.g. a popcharger, wrt how the ECU responds? 3fiddyZ, I'm never sure whether to rely on the so called butt-dyno. The fact that you've spent a few hundred on a mod may influence your opinion on any perceived improvements. Placebo mods. And even if you do feel improvement initially, maybe they are temporary and just fade away gradually and imperceptibly as the ECU slowly adjusts? Did you do your dyno test immediately after fitting the K&N and plenum spacer and did you dyno before the mods were fitted to get a measure of genuine gains, or are you referencing "stock" as per the Nissan figures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIXXERUK Posted January 9, 2008 Share Posted January 9, 2008 deleted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H5 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I think the reason plenum mods aren't cancelled, it to do with fuel / air ratio. If there is more air getting in, to keep the fuel / air ratio the same then it needs more fuel = bigger bang! Albeit the ECU canm cancel some mods, I can't believe it can deal with changing the basic set-up of an internal combustion engine!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris`I Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I think the reason plenum mods aren't cancelled, it to do with fuel / air ratio. If there is more air getting in, to keep the fuel / air ratio the same then it needs more fuel = bigger bang! Albeit the ECU canm cancel some mods, I can't believe it can deal with changing the basic set-up of an internal combustion engine!? I beleive it can with a fly by wire throttle if it wanted. Even if you are giving it more air, the FBW throttle can close a bit, to give the "normal" airflow. This is what I would guess it does when you install a popcharger. With the plenum, as it is balancing the air to the cylinders rather than letting in more, it gives better fuel/air mixes across all cylinders, which means better burn which gives more power Usual disclaimer applies, I could be talking cack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digsy Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 tdi north were going to dyno a zed with a cosworth plenum, cosworth claimed gains of 25bhp but this hasnt happened yet ? http://www.350z-uk.com/forum/viewtopic ... um&start=0 Not TDi North, TDi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H5 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I think the reason plenum mods aren't cancelled, it to do with fuel / air ratio. If there is more air getting in, to keep the fuel / air ratio the same then it needs more fuel = bigger bang! Albeit the ECU canm cancel some mods, I can't believe it can deal with changing the basic set-up of an internal combustion engine!? I beleive it can with a fly by wire throttle if it wanted. Even if you are giving it more air, the FBW throttle can close a bit, to give the "normal" airflow. This is what I would guess it does when you install a popcharger. With the plenum, as it is balancing the air to the cylinders rather than letting in more, it gives better fuel/air mixes across all cylinders, which means better burn which gives more power Usual disclaimer applies, I could be talking cack Likewise! Proves the point then - it is inconclusive..... But there are quite a few people who have had their cars dyno'd with Injen kits on, and they showed an increase. One of the guys posted his graphs on here, and there are a few in the US too. Confusing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sinbad Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 tdi north were going to dyno a zed with a cosworth plenum, cosworth claimed gains of 25bhp but this hasnt happened yet ? http://www.350z-uk.com/forum/viewtopic ... um&start=0 Not TDi North, TDi. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIXXERUK Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 tdi north were going to dyno a zed with a cosworth plenum, cosworth claimed gains of 25bhp but this hasnt happened yet ? http://www.350z-uk.com/forum/viewtopic ... um&start=0 Not TDi North, TDi. +1 i thought they were the same thing ? just one down south and one oop north ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M13KYF Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 tdi north were going to dyno a zed with a cosworth plenum, cosworth claimed gains of 25bhp but this hasnt happened yet ? http://www.350z-uk.com/forum/viewtopic ... um&start=0 Not TDi North, TDi. +1 i thought they were the same thing ? just one down south and one oop north ? TDI North are a sister company, kind of the same thing yes, but a smaller operation and specialising more in Honda's. Great guys and quality workmanship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIXXERUK Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I think the reason plenum mods aren't cancelled, it to do with fuel / air ratio. If there is more air getting in, to keep the fuel / air ratio the same then it needs more fuel = bigger bang! Albeit the ECU canm cancel some mods, I can't believe it can deal with changing the basic set-up of an internal combustion engine!? why does it cancel out any gains from an air filter then ? shirley that does the same - more air/fuel, unless the MAF is grassing on us squeeling to the ecu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIXXERUK Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 tdi north were going to dyno a zed with a cosworth plenum, cosworth claimed gains of 25bhp but this hasnt happened yet ? http://www.350z-uk.com/forum/viewtopic ... um&start=0 Not TDi North, TDi. +1 i thought they were the same thing ? just one down south and one oop north ? TDI North are a sister company, kind of the same thing yes, but a smaller operation and specialising more in Honda's. Great guys and quality workmanship. gotcha mike, so any r&d is done at the head office so to speak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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