H5 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I think the reason plenum mods aren't cancelled, it to do with fuel / air ratio. If there is more air getting in, to keep the fuel / air ratio the same then it needs more fuel = bigger bang! Albeit the ECU canm cancel some mods, I can't believe it can deal with changing the basic set-up of an internal combustion engine!? why does it cancel out any gains from an air filter then ? shirley that does the same - more air/fuel, unless the MAF is grassing on us squeeling to the ecu See my other post above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIXXERUK Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I think the reason plenum mods aren't cancelled, it to do with fuel / air ratio. If there is more air getting in, to keep the fuel / air ratio the same then it needs more fuel = bigger bang! Albeit the ECU canm cancel some mods, I can't believe it can deal with changing the basic set-up of an internal combustion engine!? why does it cancel out any gains from an air filter then ? shirley that does the same - more air/fuel, unless the MAF is grassing on us squeeling to the ecu See my other post above. all this scrolling is wearing my mouse out, phew ! yeah, i agree it doesnt have suck more air in to maintain the volume of air in the plenum and will work better as it isnt sloped like the oem one. its only suck, bang, blow !! how hard can it be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sl114 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 its only suck, bang, blow !! how hard can it be Thats how i like it too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIXXERUK Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 its only suck, bang, blow !! how hard can it be Thats how i like it too lay - mans terms Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris`I Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 its only suck, bang, blow !! how hard can it be Thats how i like it too You missed one - sqeeze. Sounds like you are describing a 3 stroke haha Suck, squeeze, bang, blow - thats a four stroke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Don Posted January 10, 2008 Author Share Posted January 10, 2008 I think the reason plenum mods aren't cancelled, it to do with fuel / air ratio. If there is more air getting in, to keep the fuel / air ratio the same then it needs more fuel = bigger bang! Albeit the ECU canm cancel some mods, I can't believe it can deal with changing the basic set-up of an internal combustion engine!? why does it cancel out any gains from an air filter then ? shirley that does the same - more air/fuel, unless the MAF is grassing on us squeeling to the ecu See my other post above. You don't sound 100% convinced there, H5. GixxerUK's question remains unanswered. What we need is a 350Z ECU guru who can answer this question once and for all in words that we can all understand. Speak up and educate us, the ignorant masses... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Chris Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 If you increase air into the engine, the maf and lambda combo should detect this and the ecu add more fuel. That is how it works on most modern cars, so why shoudl the 350Z be any different? The only possibility I can think of is if the ecu is set to only allow a certain power output and is feathering the throttle butterfly to let in less air, basically not opening as much as you are telling it too. Why would nissan go to the trouble of designing such a thing into the ecu, it doesn`t make any obvious sense, unless its something to do with environmental restrictions or maybe the injectors have an upper safe limit of operation? Mods that artificially increase fuel delivery are bound to fail as the ecu will detect overfuelling via the lambda and will drop the fuel delivery down to give the right mixture. Mods that increase air delivery into the cylinder can only increase power or your car will run lean and the ecu can`t let that happen. I have heard tales of scooby owners resetting the ecu and driving up hills like nutters with tons of weight in the car in order to get the ecu to learn a high fuel load and then when they drive it normally it overfuels and gives them a little more oomph, but of course the ecu immediately starts to learn again and soon drops the fuelling back to normal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H5 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I think the reason plenum mods aren't cancelled, it to do with fuel / air ratio. If there is more air getting in, to keep the fuel / air ratio the same then it needs more fuel = bigger bang! Albeit the ECU canm cancel some mods, I can't believe it can deal with changing the basic set-up of an internal combustion engine!? why does it cancel out any gains from an air filter then ? shirley that does the same - more air/fuel, unless the MAF is grassing on us squeeling to the ecu See my other post above. You don't sound 100% convinced there, H5. GixxerUK's question remains unanswered. What we need is a 350Z ECU guru who can answer this question once and for all in words that we can all understand. Speak up and educate us, the ignorant masses... Scroll up to my post of 9.30am, which is what I was referring to in this post. If you want a conclusive answer, the only way of getting that is testing individual products on a dyno to see if the ECU is 'successful' in negating any theoretical power gains. In a nutshell, a N/A tune will need a new ECU anyway, so it is academic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Chris Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 In a nutshell, a N/A tune will need a new ECU anyway, so it is academic. Why need a new ECU? If the Mod is modest then surely the stock ECU has enough leeway in it's tolerance to cope with a small improvement? Are the ECU's already at their upper limit on the UK cars? :confused: It all seems a bit bizarre. As I have a stock GT and am planning some simple mods, I think I will be a guinea pig and find out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H5 Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 In a nutshell, a N/A tune will need a new ECU anyway, so it is academic. Why need a new ECU? If the Mod is modest then surely the stock ECU has enough leeway in it's tolerance to cope with a small improvement? Are the ECU's already at their upper limit on the UK cars? :confused: It all seems a bit bizarre. As I have a stock GT and am planning some simple mods, I think I will be a guinea pig and find out When I say N/A tune, I mean full on, not just filters and plenums. Full rebuild etc. will need a new / piggyback ECU to remap the whole shebang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Chris Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 In a nutshell, a N/A tune will need a new ECU anyway, so it is academic. Why need a new ECU? If the Mod is modest then surely the stock ECU has enough leeway in it's tolerance to cope with a small improvement? Are the ECU's already at their upper limit on the UK cars? :confused: It all seems a bit bizarre. As I have a stock GT and am planning some simple mods, I think I will be a guinea pig and find out When I say N/A tune, I mean full on, not just filters and plenums. Full rebuild etc. will need a new / piggyback ECU to remap the whole shebang. Ah, good, then I shall proceed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3FIDDYZ Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Don, not relying on anything! Its more about the noise and the feel to me than stated figures, and it definitely does both of those. The Plenum (i belive) is one of the only Mods that has stood the test of time re BHP and Torque gains. No forum post I have found says different. It may also be down to the way it works as the ECU may not be able to do much about it cause of where it sits in the engine... The place where I get my car dyno'd is not supplying the items either so no reason for it to give false figuers, I just use it purly as a benchmark to see if its a + or a - against what I have had done. After all, I can always go back to OEM if things done seem to work.. Dyno'd about a 2 months after initial fitting of Plenum and K&N and figs were better than stock (yes I know you cant belive the nissan stock fig cause it dosnt matter which dyno you put a new one on it never gives you the Nissan fig... New mods have been on 2 months so am keeping up a "constant". Will then review 2 months down the line again with current setup, thus seeing if the figs are still the same. If not then I will look at an ECU setup to ensure that I am getting what I had because of the ECU dialing them out over time. I would add at this point that i feel that if the ECU did dial out the upgrades it would do it over a 10 miles or so rather than 100. Unfortunatly you dont have an actual figure to start with (unless you dyno stock) so by doing it this way at the same location and similer conditions you at least have a + or - figure to bench mark against. This way at least you can say it was better than before and next time it will (fingers crossed) be better than it was last time. It may be that the figs are out anyway as I am running 19's now not 18's, who knows. Others will also say that brakes and suspension is the other upgrade route to upgrade to get more out of the Zed, something else that I can confirm has worked for me. The ability to get more of the power down on the floor and then stop it in a very controlled way is worth more than getting an extra 50bph out of the engine.. Anyway, just my opinion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam@Z1auto.com Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I accept that ECU tuning is the only option wrt getting max gains from your mods. But most people are looking for bolt-ons which will give good gains without the pain of the piggy back ECU and a tuning session on a dyno. So if plenum mods are NOT dialled out by the ECU, as you believe Adam, then can anyone explain why? What's the fundamental difference between that and e.g. a popcharger, wrt how the ECU responds? 3fiddyZ, I'm never sure whether to rely on the so called butt-dyno. The fact that you've spent a few hundred on a mod may influence your opinion on any perceived improvements. Placebo mods. And even if you do feel improvement initially, maybe they are temporary and just fade away gradually and imperceptibly as the ECU slowly adjusts? Did you do your dyno test immediately after fitting the K&N and plenum spacer and did you dyno before the mods were fitted to get a measure of genuine gains, or are you referencing "stock" as per the Nissan figures? this is not a car that rewards bolt ons...modern naturally aspirated cars simply don't work like that anymore. Even turbo cars are less than optimized when it comes to bolt on mods. Everything centers around the ecu in modern auto tuning. Without altering the ecu, any change you net will never be optimized to make the most of any hardware, you need proper software - its the same with anything computer related. Can you realize gains by just fitting a plenum spacer, high flow cats and an exhaust? Absolutely - probably about 15 whp. With ecu tuning that figure can double and nearly triple. The tuning is the most important aspsect of this car and it yields tremendous rewards. Upgrades such as the UTEC also make it quite easy for the do it yourselfer to do (so long as they understand what makes an engine run, and can read and understand a detailed instruction manual) a popcharger, or any intake on this car is an absolute waste of money as the stock design, particularly the 06 cars (different airbox design) is quite good unless you want the looks/sound...makes noise, nothing more. A dyno will never, ever, ever show a legitimate gain from an intake. If you want to know if an intake netted you any power, you install it as a standalone mod, take it to a 1/4 mile track, and compare pre-install mph with post install mph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3FIDDYZ Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I think the reason plenum mods aren't cancelled, it to do with fuel / air ratio. If there is more air getting in, to keep the fuel / air ratio the same then it needs more fuel = bigger bang! Albeit the ECU canm cancel some mods, I can't believe it can deal with changing the basic set-up of an internal combustion engine!? I beleive it can with a fly by wire throttle if it wanted. Even if you are giving it more air, the FBW throttle can close a bit, to give the "normal" airflow. This is what I would guess it does when you install a popcharger. With the plenum, as it is balancing the air to the cylinders rather than letting in more, it gives better fuel/air mixes across all cylinders, which means better burn which gives more power Usual disclaimer applies, I could be talking cack Hummmm FBW throttle.... Another argument / discussion point. I am currently trialing a "Sprint Booster" for another forum. Results and Install to be posted soon. Its basicaly a block that plugs in to the loud pedal and then the FBW plugs into that. In a nutshell it tells the engine to do exactly what you want it to do and when. If you floor the pedal in a Zed the ECU still has control over what you are telling it too do. ie delays and control to the engine... Again fitting this seems to have done something to the car as it feels and reacts differently, its a more balanced surge of power depending on how you put your foot down. From the manufacturers website... "What is Sprint Booster? Most cars in the 21st century have replaced the more conventional throttle cable for an ECM (Electronic Control Module) that translates how hard the pedal is pushed into electronic signals in order to provide power to the wheels. The ETC (Electronic Throttle Control), which is also known as Drive-By-Wire, has the unfortunate downside of delayed response and subdued acceleration, which can create problems in certain situations such as up-hill starts, quick gearchanges and overtaking. The Sprint Booster aims to overcome this throttle response delay for ETC equipped vehicles, by providing crisp, on-tap acceleration for whenever the driver demands it. Results At low revs, the engine responds at approximately half the time in comparison to before. The delay time whilst accelerating in 3rd and 4th gear and the engine in the mid-range, is almost zero. Big differences in the higher rev range. Improved response for downshifts and safer overtaking. Overall safety and more fun on the road!" Trialing this over the past few months, I belive this to be correct as it does what it says... Before anyone says its an Ebay chip, its not. It dosnt claim to be in anyway shape or form. If any of you are in the Surrey area wish to have a go, its a plug and play device so takes 30 secs to fit. I would welcome anyones opinions as you all know your cars from driving them and I just want to make sure that others think it works too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digsy Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 I think the reason plenum mods aren't cancelled, it to do with fuel / air ratio. If there is more air getting in, to keep the fuel / air ratio the same then it needs more fuel = bigger bang! Albeit the ECU canm cancel some mods, I can't believe it can deal with changing the basic set-up of an internal combustion engine!? I beleive it can with a fly by wire throttle if it wanted. Even if you are giving it more air, the FBW throttle can close a bit, to give the "normal" airflow. This is what I would guess it does when you install a popcharger. With the plenum, as it is balancing the air to the cylinders rather than letting in more, it gives better fuel/air mixes across all cylinders, which means better burn which gives more power Usual disclaimer applies, I could be talking cack Hummmm FBW throttle.... Another argument / discussion point. I am currently trialing a "Sprint Booster" for another forum. Results and Install to be posted soon. Its basicaly a block that plugs in to the loud pedal and then the FBW plugs into that. In a nutshell it tells the engine to do exactly what you want it to do and when. If you floor the pedal in a Zed the ECU still has control over what you are telling it too do. ie delays and control to the engine... Again fitting this seems to have done something to the car as it feels and reacts differently, its a more balanced surge of power depending on how you put your foot down. From the manufacturers website... "What is Sprint Booster? Most cars in the 21st century have replaced the more conventional throttle cable for an ECM (Electronic Control Module) that translates how hard the pedal is pushed into electronic signals in order to provide power to the wheels. The ETC (Electronic Throttle Control), which is also known as Drive-By-Wire, has the unfortunate downside of delayed response and subdued acceleration, which can create problems in certain situations such as up-hill starts, quick gearchanges and overtaking. The Sprint Booster aims to overcome this throttle response delay for ETC equipped vehicles, by providing crisp, on-tap acceleration for whenever the driver demands it. Results At low revs, the engine responds at approximately half the time in comparison to before. The delay time whilst accelerating in 3rd and 4th gear and the engine in the mid-range, is almost zero. Big differences in the higher rev range. Improved response for downshifts and safer overtaking. Overall safety and more fun on the road!" Trialing this over the past few months, I belive this to be correct as it does what it says... Before anyone says its an Ebay chip, its not. It dosnt claim to be in anyway shape or form. If any of you are in the Surrey area wish to have a go, its a plug and play device so takes 30 secs to fit. I would welcome anyones opinions as you all know your cars from driving them and I just want to make sure that others think it works too... Did this get a mention in Autocar a few weeks ago? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3FIDDYZ Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Did this get a mention in Autocar a few weeks ago? Not sure, if anyone has read an article on it I would appricite an update. One thing I did realise whilst fitting it though was its a great little anti theft thing!! Simply unplug the drive by wire plug, tuck the plug away somewhere in amid all the cables... Plug back in on return to your car! No way someone would know how to find that even if they had your keys or tried to hotwire it!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toon Chris Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Don't these boxes work by multiplying the signal by a huge factor? You put your foot down a little and the box tells the ecu that you have just floored it, therfor you think wow! that's really responsive Only what I heard, not gospel... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GIXXERUK Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Some good info mark whats the cost of a sprint booster ? the ebay things are just a resistor that go on the maf to fool it afaik - junk ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digsy Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Moved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris`I Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Don't these boxes work by multiplying the signal by a huge factor? You put your foot down a little and the box tells the ecu that you have just floored it, therfor you think wow! that's really responsive Only what I heard, not gospel... Thats what I've heard too. All it can be doing it fiddling with the signal in some way. It cant take control and tell the engine exactly what to do from there, all it can really do is take how much you've pressed it and multiply it making it feel more responsive. Now it might just dubly multiply it linearly or it might have some kind of response curve, but at the end of the day I think its just multiplying your input, just like sport buttons that are on other FBW cars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam@Z1auto.com Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Don't these boxes work by multiplying the signal by a huge factor? You put your foot down a little and the box tells the ecu that you have just floored it, therfor you think wow! that's really responsive Only what I heard, not gospel... yep! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3FIDDYZ Posted January 10, 2008 Share Posted January 10, 2008 Don't these boxes work by multiplying the signal by a huge factor? You put your foot down a little and the box tells the ecu that you have just floored it, therfor you think wow! that's really responsive Only what I heard, not gospel... Thats what I've heard too. All it can be doing it fiddling with the signal in some way. It cant take control and tell the engine exactly what to do from there, all it can really do is take how much you've pressed it and multiply it making it feel more responsive. Now it might just dubly multiply it linearly or it might have some kind of response curve, but at the end of the day I think its just multiplying your input, just like sport buttons that are on other FBW cars Correct on both accounts... Just trying to find the price, to look at they do seem alot for the cash but they seem to "do what it says on the tin"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Don Posted January 10, 2008 Author Share Posted January 10, 2008 this is not a car that rewards bolt ons...modern naturally aspirated cars simply don't work like that anymore. Even turbo cars are less than optimized when it comes to bolt on mods. Everything centers around the ecu in modern auto tuning. Without altering the ecu, any change you net will never be optimized to make the most of any hardware, you need proper software - its the same with anything computer related. Can you realize gains by just fitting a plenum spacer, high flow cats and an exhaust? Absolutely - probably about 15 whp. With ecu tuning that figure can double and nearly triple. The tuning is the most important aspsect of this car and it yields tremendous rewards. Upgrades such as the UTEC also make it quite easy for the do it yourselfer to do (so long as they understand what makes an engine run, and can read and understand a detailed instruction manual) a popcharger, or any intake on this car is an absolute waste of money as the stock design, particularly the 06 cars (different airbox design) is quite good unless you want the looks/sound...makes noise, nothing more. A dyno will never, ever, ever show a legitimate gain from an intake. If you want to know if an intake netted you any power, you install it as a standalone mod, take it to a 1/4 mile track, and compare pre-install mph with post install mph. From what I've read 15whp midrange is the kind of gain to be expected from a plenum mod, and is not a bad return without ECU work. I'd be happy with that and can always follow it up with the piggy back ECU later. 3fiddyZ, that's a sound strategy. I'll be interested to see your followup dyno results. I may well do the same by comparing dynos as I am now and after I get the lower collector fitted, giving it a while in between for the ECU to play any of its games. It's the only way I'll know for sure. I'm inclined to agree with others re: the sprint booster. Makes the ECU think you are driving the car like you stole it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 I got my Z dyno'd about a year ago when I just had a really poor quality filter on it. Think I still have the printouts filed away somewhere. I now have K&N Typhoon kit, Plenum, Cats and Nismo and the car is going back to the same place on the 2nd February so can scan and put up the results if anyone is interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lomoto Posted January 14, 2008 Share Posted January 14, 2008 I got my Z dyno'd about a year ago when I just had a really poor quality filter on it. Think I still have the printouts filed away somewhere. I now have K&N Typhoon kit, Plenum, Cats and Nismo and the car is going back to the same place on the 2nd February so can scan and put up the results if anyone is interested. sounds a similar set up to mine , I for one would be interested if there was any appreciable gain or loss of HP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.