docwra Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) Taxi firm in London has saved 24k in that time. And lost how much in depreciation? Does this include the cost of charging as well? Is it per vehicle or over a fleet? I dont think anyone is saying that EVs will not become popular in the future, but what does seem obvious is that EV fans are happy to overlook the shortcomings where ICE drivers arent. What do I do if I dont want a brand new car? What do I do if I like to own my cars outright and not on finance? And how many people who buy cars on finance get 200K miles before banging them on? What (as is actually the case) if there are no public charge points near me and I cant park outside my house? I drive 100+ miles each way at least once a week as well, what do I do then? This sums it up beautifully for me: Yes but same with ice really. Unless u have a can of fuel. Which same as if rac has a charger on board. Sorry, but how is carrying a can of fuel or getting yourself to the nearest petrol station the same as waiting for the RAC to turn up? Edited February 22, 2016 by docwra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Ah hang on... https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/ Charging points in the UK as of 2016: 3845 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2264588/75-petrol-stations-40-years-forcing-drivers-travel-pay-tanks.html Not even close. Petrol stations in the UK as of 2013: 8600 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flex Posted February 22, 2016 Author Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) Ah hang on... https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/ Charging points in the UK as of 2016: 3845 http://www.dailymail...-pay-tanks.html Not even close. Petrol stations in the UK as of 2013: 8600 But everyone has their own recharge point at home so surely that then starts to stack up? I decided I couldn't afford the Tesla anyway, I'll keep dreaming. Edited February 22, 2016 by Flex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richf Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I would imagine also very costly, i get the cheap to run concept, but to launch £70k at a Tesla and sit back and say, ah but its only costing me x per mile so is cheap is massively ironic. Even the Elon/Tesla fan club president mentions you can buy one three years old for 50% less than purchase cost, another its not actually that cheap to own/run one. There arent any 3 year old Teslas , what he is saying is you will get at least 50% back as a guarantee, the residuals on Teslas is very strong indeed much stronger than Audi, Mercedes or BMW 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richf Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) Lots of modern engines can only get to that kind of mileage with exoensive repairs though. Replacing a motor or battery pack on aTesla for example is quick and easy Aside from exotica and stuff that's simply a bad design or manufacturing error, I'm struggling to think of anything. Replacing batteries might be quick and easy, but they're not going to be cheap to purchase and you can bet it'll be a dealer-only thing as they'll need special programming. I can think of many VAG products that often need expensive engine ie DMF/DPF , rebuilds etc let alone DSG box failures, granted I'm familiar with the brand Tesla have a 8 year infinite mileage warranty , seem to have more faith in their products than ICE manufacturers Its not just about saving money either, thats not the justification for everyone Edited February 22, 2016 by Richf@H-Dev Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Surely it has to be though: As a petrolhead, I see no attraction in a car that makes no noise and has no oily bits to fiddle with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richf Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I dunno performance and handling has always been high on my list 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blobbish Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I'm not totally against the idea, but in reality its just shifting the problem to a different area. How the hell is the infrastructure going to charge all of these cars, they power companies bleat on about power usage as it is. What's going to happen when there is a significant increase. More power stations are needed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I'm not totally against the idea, but in reality its just shifting the problem to a different area. How the hell is the infrastructure going to charge all of these cars, they power companies bleat on about power usage as it is. What's going to happen when there is a significant increase. More power stations are needed. This is important. Currently energy companies are plowing billions back into renewable energy development, but 1. there isnt enough cash to build what is needed and so they get funds from the government, if they need to build more, then the taxpayer has to pay for this 2. there are only so many wind farms and hydro plants you can physically build on and around a small island 3. there is not sufficient infrastructure to transport the additional power needed around the country The cost of owning the car is not the cost to plug in and charge up and how much VED you pay, its the end to end cost from energy creation to deployment which currently is coping with the tiny percent of electric cars on the road, who is going to pay for all the above to change to accommodate 10m EVs or 20m EVs? You must take a longer view point on it than just the 'I saved £X this month beat that' 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I dunno performance and handling has always been high on my list Handling and EV do not currently go together. A 2 ton barge isn't my idea of handling I feel no excitement for an electric dragster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flex Posted February 22, 2016 Author Share Posted February 22, 2016 I think Thorium is the answer, google TED talks on Thorium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richf Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 I dunno performance and handling has always been high on my list Handling and EV do not currently go together. A 2 ton barge isn't my idea of handling I feel no excitement for an electric dragster. It depends on where the weight is , the Tesla P85d handles very well indeed , I take it you have driven one and didnt like it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 It depends on where the weight is , the Tesla P85d handles very well indeed , I take it you have driven one and didnt like it ? No it doesnt, a 2000KG car will never handle or stop as well as a 1500KG car. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 (edited) Its not just about saving money either, thats not the justification for everyone Actually I would go as far as to say anyone who thinks buying a Tesla for the purpose of 'saving money' either has too much money or is just mad. If saving money was the pure motivation than a £500 banger with a 12 month old MOT is hard to beat, or you buy one of these for about £5K second hand and run-it till it dies . The issue of power generation needs to be sorted, and preferably via renewables which can do the job, but the government need to drive it. Still does anyone here really care that much about where the power comes from?? I know I don't, I just want the instant torque of an electric motor, comfort, and £10 to go 250 miles rather than £100 (Or for free if I use a Tesla Supercharger), where the electricity comes from I really don't care. Selfish I know, but that's my motivation for wanting a Tesla .....and if Porsche can deliver on the Mission E, in 2020 I'll happily look into one of those. Edited February 22, 2016 by gangzoom 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richf Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 So the COG has no impact ? The Tesla handles very well indeed it has a very low centre of gravity and it stops exceptionally well since it has massive brakes and regen braking it has a similar 100-0 kmh as a Porsche Cayman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 And doesn't go round a corner anywhere near as well as an M5, let alone a Cayman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docwra Posted February 22, 2016 Share Posted February 22, 2016 Exactly. COG makes a lot of difference in two cars weighing the same but unless your COG is about 10 ft underground its not going to make 500KG of difference. Massive brakes and regen braking arent needed on anything else, that tells its own story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted February 23, 2016 Share Posted February 23, 2016 (edited) For anyone actually seriously interested in power generation this website provides a live feed from the national grid. You can see demand is very predictable with very little variation. The combined max power generation of the grid is over 60GW, most of the time the grid is around 30-40GW. If you presume people charge up their cars overnight actual demand on the grid is not noticeable. But to really capture solar you need battery storage, this will enable you to store solar to use at night, since you simply cannot 'turn off' a gas/coal/nuclear power station even if wind/solar are contributing enough power to met demand. There has been a recent spate of newly installed wind-mills around Leicester, apparently the reason they don't run 24/7 is because they supply TOO much electricity to the grid, so at times need to be shut down. So countries that generate too much power from renewables have the option to export the power. http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ This is the live feed from France, but also shows if other European countries are doing interms of exporting or importing electricity. Germany has by far the largest number of windfarms/solar so can export a lot of electricity at times. Norway isn't on there, but they generate 90%+ of their electricity from hydro, and also have the largest percentage of EVs on the roads anywhere....they also sell gas/oil to the rest of Europe, so pushing renewable for themselves but making £££ off fossil fuels from everyone else . http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/france/ Germany generated 1/3 of its power requirements from renewables last year, up from previous year, and far more than any other developed country. Ironically EVs there have no incentives tax or purchase. http://cleantechnica.com/2016/01/13/almost-33-german-electricity-came-renewables-2015/ Edited February 23, 2016 by gangzoom 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 I'll just leave this here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetpilot Posted February 24, 2016 Share Posted February 24, 2016 (edited) I'll just leave this here At least no one could nick one via the app Edited February 24, 2016 by Jetpilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 (edited) I'll just leave this here Nissan is stupid for not implementing a proper security check. Yes they need to fix it. Have I turned off the connected feature?? No, because I like having a lovely deforsted car first thing in the morning when everyone else is out scrapping their windscreens . You can actually setup the auto preheat via the built in timer in the car, and than disable the connected car feature, but I'm lazy and prefer to use the phone App. Edited February 25, 2016 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 Can't believe Nissan didn't fix it given the warning, although I wonder if a hacker would do something malicious to thousands of cars given it is almost too easy to do, no kudos for a decent hacker to do this. Interesting points above GZ - had a quick google on wiki about Germany and they have a different approach to incentivising EV use, they get free parking, use bus lanes etc. They are currently well behind their target of 1m EVs by 2020 so financial tax breaks are being planned by the government. There are also extra taxes on ICE cars we dont have such as private usage of company car taxes which make EVs more appealing. I don't think its actually taking off that well in Germany by the sounds of it and the public need a shot in the arm financially to take them up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 ^^ Ironically Nissan has been pushing the newly update Leaf with the bigger battery pack + more connectivity. The Leaf phone App is now off-line, I presume it'll be back with once a fix is in place. The boss of Nissan said their first generation autonomous tech is coming end of the year in Japan. Not sure how much confidence I have in that given the phone App is actually very simple in comparison . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangzoom Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 (edited) At least no one could nick one via the app You joke about this, but with the latest Tesla updates even I've got real concerns. The summon feature is still 'beta' but what is to say if some one gets into the security setting of the car they could just 'summon' the car to any random destination on the map?? Car theivies in the future might just need an internet connection and the right bit code!! If hackers can get into the NASA, and Pentagon computer system I'm pretty sure some kid some where can break through the Tesla security. The below video isn't some staged press event, it's a real car effectively powering up, moving it self, all controlled via a iWatch...You really have to have a lot of trust your $70K+ car isn't just going to reverse straight out into the road!! Edited February 25, 2016 by gangzoom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted February 25, 2016 Share Posted February 25, 2016 So given a months notice they do nothing, it goes public, sorted in a day - typical corporate nonsense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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