gangzoom

I think I'm just too stupid to explain why Battery EVs are the future …. I think Elon Musk the man NASA trusts to deliver supplies to the International Space Station, and to build the launch platform for a planned mission to Mars along side Boeing (backed up with $6 billion of american tax payer cash), is a better candidate... http://www.wsj.com/a...acts-1410904245 Here is Q&A session he did at the Detroit (motorcity) motor show earlier this year....Some poor journalist was brave enough to challenge him about hydrogen fuel cells...You can almost see he is having to bite his tongue with every breath and in his mind this is what he is thinking.. The fun starts at about 10 minutes in... https://youtu.be/Y_e7rA4fBAo?t=10m13s

A Tesla S in Norway is apparently the same price as a VW Passat. It's all down to tax, and the fact Norway gets most of electricity for 'free' through hydro and geothermal energy. I believe in Norway the Tesla is actually the number one best selling car for a few months last year!! So the X3 your driving was probably far mor expensive to buy than the Tesla But clearly they all must be mad there, who would buy an electric car in a country with cold weather most of the time, not many cities, the need to have the heater on everywhere you drive....Just think of all the range anxiety

I don't think you need to be a genius to work out what I'm saving up for

May be I've gone mad (my wife tells me this every day...but that's even before I bought the Leaf ) But I 100% enjoy driving the 109bhp, 100 mile range, Leaf more than my 335i/Z/Integra R....On the right road, in the right condition, the Integra R in my mind however still delivers the best driving experience, but 99.95% of the time, I would take the Leaf (unless I have do a trip longer than 70 miles that is ) All this is only my opinion, but rather than just dismiss EVs (as many people seem to do), I really think people should go and try them and make up their own minds. My aim is still very much to get into a Tesla ASAP, knowing full well that in 3-4 years times a cheaper, faster, better, Tesla will be around.....But someone at some point have already mentioned 'Life is too short'. Just a final thought: A £80K Tesla P85D with 691bhp will do 0-60 in 3.1 seconds. A £200K Ferrari 458 Spider will do 0-60 in 3.3 seconds. A £££ McLaren F1 will do 0-60 in 3.2 seconds. A ££££ Ferrari Enzo will match the P85D to 60, at 3.1 seconds. A £££££ Bugatti Veyron is quicker to 0-60 2.7 seconds. Though all of these cars are stupidly expensive, and most people can only every dream of sitting in one, let alone own or drive one.....With the magic of depreciation, I suspect some people on this forum may well have the funds to access at least one of those cars in 3 years time, as well as actually consider running one as a day to day family car.....A used Tesla P85D is probably the bargain of the century given its performance potential in a few years time..... Well that's the line I'm trying to convince the wife with

Rather than just guess, why don't you just book a Tesla test drive and find out, and than feed back to the rest of us?? I think one reviewer said it was like a Bugatti Veyron but even more brutal!! Why would you want that kind of acceleration in a 'fun' car The only reason I haven't even sat or been near a Tesla in the flesh is because I have no self control, and have a good track record of wasting £££ on cars....The Leaf serves me perfectly at the moment, the most un-sensible thing for me to do now is to order a Tesla S

I hope you haven’t just compared the drivetrain of something as good as the Tesla to a diesel (Trust me I wouldn’t have swapped my 335i for something that has 0.001% hint of been like our old diesel Civic)...The main reason I love the 109 bhp Leaf, it's more 'fun' to drive than my old 380bhp ICE 335i.... The article your looking for is this…But it’s the usual journalist not doing their home work, the department of transport (not to be confused with the government) is reviewing the EV grant as we speak. And it’s likely once the current 50,000 car limit is reached, a staggered system will come in place, to promote the sale of battery EVs rather than just plug-in hybrids. http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-32217969 Battery are obvious a concern, it's the biggest cost of the car. But this is what the motor industry is saying about battery life concerns now that the Leaf has been around for a few years. http://fleetworld.co...ults/0434019180 Incidentally a replacement battery from Nissan is £5000, this goes down to £4000 after Nissan rebates you £1000 for your old battery. A few years ago the cost was predicted to be £8000, and the cost will fall more as the years go on. http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/nissan/89694/nissan-leaf-battery-replacement-to-cost-4920 The main issue is like I said, the current EVs are all 1.0 cars. Remember how rubbish the original iPhone was, rubbish battery, no 3G, no Apps, stupidly expensive compared to other phones. People buying things like Tesla’s now and paid £30K for a Leaf back in 2011 are really early adopters, and most know that in 2-3 years time the same product will be cheaper and better….But that’s always been the case with technology products. Nissan will be announcing a 2016/17 Leaf at some point with a real range of 150 miles for the same price as the current car, hence why I have no interest in actually ‘owing’ the Leaf I’m driving now...and only jumped on-board once the numbers worked in my favour due to all the discounts. All I suggest is that people go and try these things for themselves and make up their own mind. Nissan do 7 days test drives for free. Interesting, there’s been hardly any negative comments on this post from people who have actually driven/been in an EV (Even an EV van) These things clearly don't work for every one, and many wouldnt want to swap their ICE car just yet....But for me, I find it very hard NOT seeing these battery EVs as been the future of cars....Hydrogen fuel cells may be needed for things like lorries/buses, but for personal cars, I think battery technology is pretty much ready.

Day time domestic electricity is 15p kWh, or 6l kWh at night if you have a Economic 7 meter. So if you put 24 kWh into a Leaf it's a maximum of £3.5, cheapest £1.45 per 80-90 miles. A Tesla S with a 85 kWh battery will cost maximum of £12 to £5. for 260-300 miles of range. Currently the charge points that so cost money either charge at 14 p / kWH or have a yearly / monthly fee. Plug-in Midlands cards only cost £10 for a year, to access all their charger points. Most EV owners charge up at home during the night, if you have solar panels on the house than it also reduce costs....So to answer you question on charge...It's still very very cheap. The only way prices will go up is if electricity costs go up. But unlike petrol the government cannot TAX it like mad, without it impacting in ALL other appliances that needed electricity. The £5k grant is likely to carry on till at least 2020. The 'free' home charger grant has been extended till than, but now costs £200 rather than been totally free. The government have recently introduced a 'traiff' system, where EV/hybrids are ranked. Currently ALL EV/hybrids gets £5K off, so even the Porsche Panamera/Merc S class hybrid get £5k despite been able to cover about only 10 miles on EV mode. Under the new tariff it's likely only pure battery EVs will qualify for the full £5k off.....Personally I think even battery EVs that have a list prices of greater than £50k should also be off the list, and that money used to give a bigger discount for cheaper EVs to drive up adoption rates. I know that would mean I would have to pay £60k for a Tesla rather than £55k, but if you can afford a £55k to start off with, you don't need a £5k grant from the government.... But as it stands my plan is to have a driveway consisting of ONLY EVs by 2020, so hopefully I'll be getting about £15k worth of EV grants + 2-3 home chargers (maybe one for the parents house once we have two chargers at home), assuming I get a Tesla to replace the Leaf, and the wife gets either a Infiniti or another Tesla to replace her Lexus (even though we have just bough it ) Finally on the point of 'engaging to drive', have you driven a Tesla? I haven't, so why dismiss something based on pre-formed misconceptions?? I honestly cannot see how 691 BHP would be not entertaining ...and don't forget this is only the start of EVs. All current cars are really 1.0 devices (some are probably 0.95 releases). Cars like the M3 have evolved over decades, but if Tesla can deploy a 691bhp machine just two years after launching the Tesla S (it's not even had a 'facelift' yet), can you imagine how good the next generation of products will be....I know I cannot wait to see what they will announce next. I really have 0% interest in any ICE cars regardless of price/performance, as far as am concerned ICEs cars are like Nokia phones in 2007 when Apple first announced the iPhone. Loads of them around everywhere, they work fine, but you know they will all be in the bin sooner rather than later .....If I was a betting man I would go and buy some Tesla shares (should have also bought Apple shares back in 2007).

I 100% take all your points, like I said it wasn't that long ago (2 months to be exact) I was spending 3 hrs a day doing a 100 mile round trip commute. I certainly don't mind paying an early adopter 'tax' to get something like a Tesla. But the Leaf, with all the deals going is no more expensive to own than any number of 'normal' family hatchbacks, and for lots of people it will work well as a commuter car, but clearly for a lot it wouldn't. I certainly didn't think 6 months ago, I'll be loving driving a Leaf to work and back, infact even 1 months ago I hadn't even given the Leaf a second glance. But there are some really good deals going support by ALOT of tax payers money (as other's have pointed out - Should a £60K Tesla be supported by a £5K government grant?? I personally don't think so, but that's a different debate). With 3 years old Leafs costing only £9K including the cost of the battery, thats the same price as a 3 year old Ford Fiesta. I would argue, actually Nissan, through the Leaf have made EVs viable as a daily car for lots of people....These things aren't magical machines of the future (like hydrogen fuel cell cars), they are here and now, for every one to buy/use. I really don't think Nissan gets enough credit for the money they have pumped into developing and mass producing the Leaf (made in Swindon). For all my talk about Tesla, the first EV car I've bought with my own cash is a Leaf The Audi A3 e-tron, VW e-Golf, Kia Soul EV are just some 'normal' looking EVs which have just come out, but they are pretty expensive bits of kit compared to the Leaf but none really better the Leaf, and when Nissan announces the next gen Leaf in 2016, they will be easily a generation ahead of the competition.

It seems most people are concerned about: 1: Range 2: Charging But strangely enough those are two things I worry least about in the Leaf. Ok if I was still doing a 100 miles commute daily that would be a issue, but if that was the case, i would have just bought a Tesla S now (well most likely 'financed' rather than out-right purchase), and range becomes a non-issue (unless your doing more than 200 miles a day). The comment about cycling/walking/buses can get every where if you live in a city is just a odd thing to say, how many people on this forum live less than 20 miles away from work and still use their car all the time?? How many people on the forum actually even know where their nearest bus stop is, let alone get on one in the last 1 year?? I do cycle quite a bit, probably more than most people on this forum (most threads about cycling on this forum is usually negative anyways). But actually with the Leaf, it's cheaper for me to drive, because I consume more 'food' for every mile cycle than it costs me to 're-fuel' the Leaf. Charging. This is only a issue because I'm currently trying too see if I can actually run this thing for totally ZERO cost to me interms of electricity. So actively seeking out free public charge points. Simplest thing to do is actually just to plug into my newly installed home charger (which takes 30 seconds) twice a week overnight, but so far in 300 miles of driving over 2 weeks I've not even used the home charger once In traffic the Leaf uses 0.2-0.5 kWh of battery for the radio/heater, so even with less than half charge, your be fine for about 20hrs, long after everyone else's ICE car have run out of petrol.....Unlike an ICE, when the electric motor is stopped, it draws no power, and is most efficient going slowly...Infact miles/kWh goes UP when stuck in traffic jams, as does the range!! I actually think if more people tried out these things for themselves, worked out the costs, more people would actually see why most EV owners have no interest in driving anything that has a ICE in it. The Tesla is really tempting though, especially the new 70D version at £55K, if I haven't committed to the Leaf (and like it so much), I would find it very hard not to order one....Even my wife is happy for me to order the Tesla to replace the Leaf in 18 months time....and she is normally very sensible with money, so for her to agree to wasting £55K on a car, you know it's got be something special Infinite are also working on an EV, but they aren't due to announce anything for a while yet

It's not a great looker (or that fast), but I find my self turning round to check on it when walking away more than any of my previous cars The more I drive the thing, the more I'm convinced (and my wife) that pure EVs (battery or hydrogen) is the way forwards. I tend to do mainly stop/start urban driving, and in that situation the Leaf is 're-capturing' 1/3 of the energy used to move it through braking...and the re-fuel costs are staggeringly cheap, to a point it's almost stupid. This is my predicted electricity costs over the last 230 miles. But actually you can cut that down by 2/3, because of 'free for now' public charging I've only had to use 16kWh of my own electricity....230 miles in the 335i, at 25mpg would be close to £50....Yes I know every says 'I don't care about mpg/fuel cost' but having an extra £49 in my pocket for every 2 weeks of commuting purely on re-fuel costs alone is more than helpful to the Tesla fund....Fuel savings alone in 24 months will be enough to pay for the fancy air-suspension option So...the more of this I use... ...The more of these options I get to have in 24 months time

How about this, Leaf Nismo RC, apparently same drive train as Leaf

Was at Nissan Leicester for a quick free top up charge (with coffee and newspaper ), whilst on the way to a meeting. Really surprised at the number of Leafs parked in the work area (5 including mine). At this rate, charge rage may become more of a problem for owners than range anxiety

Don't worry 'Charge rage' is already here http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10592660/Charge-Rage-electric-car-owners-get-angry-after-having-vehicles-unplugged.html

Had a play, very impressive tech...Much more responsive than I had imagined for a 1st gen device. The interface is fab, the Maps app was very impressive!! Alas no funds for Apple stuff for the next few years

I've got 30k sitting in my car fund...But it's not getting touched for anything...need to save up for a bit longer

Are the Watches in the stores to try out?? Cannot splash out on anything Apple till I order my Tesla, but can still window shop

Looks amazing....thats some dedication to see the project finished!!

So first week of ownership and 200miles done. I've only had to pay to recharge the car overnight once (from 30% to 100%). This is because currently there are many free public charging points. Today I charged up for 1.5 hrs whilst I did some supermarket shopping and light lunch (post night shift), over easter weekend I charged up for free whilst in a large shopping centre....So in fact over the last 200 miles I've paid about £1 to 're-fuel' the Leaf....I cannot think of any other form of transport that can come close !! But for me, getting the Leaf was as much about trying out the new technology as much as saving £££. I’m really really surprised at how much I love the Leaf, despite the fact it’s by far the slowest car I’ve owned in the last 10 years. Regardless of cost I honestly wouldn’t swap the Leaf for my previous 380bhp BMW 335i, despite the yawning performance gap. I just have one thing to say to Elon Musk and Tesla….Just get on with it and announce the Tesla III, and I’ll happily drop a £10K deposit today to secure an early build slot for a RHD car Oh my 'free' home charge point was installed today, it can pull unto 7.2kWh compared to 2.1 kWh from normal 3 pin....I've turned it off at the master switch, the Leaf doesn't have big enough batteries to need that kind of charge rate...This thing is reserved for the Tesla

Looked at all the finances today...The Tesla fund is actually much healther than I thought, the top spec 700bhp version might not be the pipe dream I thought it was ....I suspect the delima I'll have in 18-24 months time is to decided between a used current generation Tesla S (decent numbers sold already in the UK, so there will be used stock) or a newer/fancier model....Looking fowards to making that decision. So don't worry I'm still very much interested in performance cars....only problem is I cannot really call my self a 'pertrol head' when these things don't run on petrol (unless you count the coal/gas/oil usedto generate the electrcity )

Or you could just get an Annual train/bus ticket, pay your electricity that way & save forking out for a car that will depreciate Actually at 30p/mile, it's certainly cheaper than the train, and not far off the cost of buying monthly passes for all 3 different bus companies that cover Leicester (£160/month in total)....Infact I don't actually know why anyone gets the bus with the cost of the Leaf deals going, I could have actually 'bought' the base-spec Leaf and insured/serviced it for 2 years for £155/month ALL-IN with no deposit. If you charge it using the free public charing points, it is actually CHEAPER than buying all the required monthly bus passes that covers Leicester.....That really is ridiculously cheap

LoL I can understand my people like all the noise/drama of ICE performance cars....I have been to Four F1 GPs in various parts of the world Just about to open a Santander 1-2-3 account. Will be paying the electricity via that account, and putting in the money from the 335i sale. The interest I get from that account is going to cover the electricity bill....It's not much, but every £ saved is another £ going into the Tesla fund ....oh in my view the i8 is the biggest waste of £££ around. More expensive than Tesla S, seats less people, slower, rubbish EV range....How BMW managed to develop something so rubbish compared to the Tesla S despite spending so much £££ on carbon fibre etc is beyond me

I'll keep the thread update over the next 24 months....I do find people who push the range of the Leaf to the max very brave...I certainly wouldn't want to be running down to the last 10% of charge . I've already got approval from the wife for a Tesla to replace the Leaf . I'll probably be putting in the order for the Tesla in 18 months or so given how long delivery is taking!! But will probably have to settle for the cheaper/poverty spec 380bhp version rather than the 691bhp insane versions....Still I suspect I wouldn't be disappointed by it

So I've been the owner of a 109 BHP, 100 mile range full electric Nissan Leaf for the last 5 days....My previous 3 cars have been a: Honda Integra Type R, Nissan 350Z, and a tuned BMW 335i running upto 380bhp... So how I find swapping my BMW for a Leaf?? to a The first thing to say is that the current generation of EVs have two main short comings compared to ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) cars. 1: Battery range needs to increase by about 30-40%. Unless you can afford the Tesla S (£50K+) if your daily commute is more than 30 miles one-way I wouldn’t bother trying an EV. Realistic range of the Leaf in current chilli temperature is around 70 miles, so a 60 mile daily round trip will have some ‘anxiety’. People do it, but I couldn’t. 2: Initial upfront cost needs to come down. I’ve ‘bought' my Leaf for £13K….but that’s with a £5k government grant, Nissan taking £5K off the list price, and some fancy leasing options on the battery. If you look at an i3 £30K (before government grant), that’s a lot to pay for what is essentially a city car. Both these two points, are been addressed, Nissan is set announce a 150 mile range Leaf in the next 18 months, and prices will come down, as battery technology gets cheaper. So with these two issues in mentioned upfront what do I think about the Leaf? In short - I love it, and I wouldn’t swap it for any of my previous cars 1: The EV drivetrain In the last 10 years spending £££ on a car has never been a issue for me: Honda Integra Type R: Nissan 350Z: Awarded 'Car of the year' back in 2004 by TopGear magazine. Heavily tuned BMW 335i: Pushing 380bhp, with quaife LSD and bespoke suspension - For all intents and purposes as quick as a M3 in a straight line and around the corners. So believe me, the last thing I want to drive around in is a 3 cylinder shopping trolley regardless of how cheap it is...I really really wanted to hate the Leaf on the test drive, but I was sold on the EV drivetrain by the time I had pulled out of the dealership. Performance car manufactures strive to develop drivetrains with several main features: Rapid access to torque (hence some people love diesel), a smooth drive transmission (DCT), combined with good Economy/reliability ... The truth of the matter is, even though the Leaf is a pretty mundane family run-about, and has a EV motor only capable of 80kw (109bhp), it delivers the power in a way no ICE car can ever manage. The ability to access 100% torque at 0 rpm, along with the concept of NOT having any gears or any engine noise/vibration, makes for a really fun and refined driving experience. Now that I've got use to the driving experience delivered by the EV drivetrain of the Leaf, I honestly have to say I wouldn't swap the Leaf for any of my previous cars ....and the really exciting thing about EVs is the current crop of car are essentially 1st generation machines. 2: The technology: I love gadgets, the BMW 335i was pretty poor in that respect, our current Lexus has almost too much, but the Leaf is in a different league. Bluetooth audio/keyless entry/reversing camera etc (it's got all that). Ok interior isn't covered in cow skin, and hasn't got the iPad interface of the Tesla. But you can tell this 'car' is more a technology product than a traditional car. You can re-mote control charging and the climate confrol system on the car, Live read outs of the energy use etc Nissan will will even analyse all the data and compare you to other Leaf drivers...It's like Strava but for cars!! 3: Cost of ownership (lack of) My Leaf is currently reporting 4.1 miles per kWH of electricity. Economic 7 rates = 6.6p/kWH (My economic 7 meter is going in next week) Leaf therefore cost 1.65p per mile to ‘re-fuel’ - not including any free charging... My 335i, assuming 25mpg (realistic mpg in urban traffic), £1.15/l = 20p per mile in fuel Our IS300H, assuming 50 mpg, £1.15/l = 10p per mile. So the Leaf cost 12(TWELVE) times less to refuel than the 335i, and 6(SIX) times less to refuel than even the very economical Lexus…. That said, running costs of a car has never been a concern for me, but for those wanting the cheapest to get from A to B, the Leaf is very hard to beat!!! (Even when compared to just walking/bus) 4: Range / Charge: The first thing everyone asks me about the Leaf is range…Despite only using it to get around the City, I’ve managed to cover some 150 miles in the last few days, and the issue of range hasn’t bothered me once!! I plug my phone/laptop into the mains at night, and now do the same with the Leaf. It's less hassle than visiting a petrol station at 6am in the morning. Realistic range is about 70-80 miles, so unless your been stupid on purpose and don't understand the limitations/concept of range/charging I cannot see how anyone could run of electricity…There are also a whole load of ‘free’ charging points in various public places if you look. Battery life also doesn't appear to be an issue. After an initial rapid full in charge capacity, Tesla owners report 94-92% battery efficiency at 50k, with a 1% drop in charge capacity every 18K miles or so….Just for reference my BMW has done 60K at time of sale, and had cost me in excess of £3K in repair bills using a friendly trustworthy local mechanic, that bill would be closer to £6K had I used BMW dealers. The likes of Toyota/Honda are still obsessed by hydrogen fuel cells, these guys need to wake up and smell the air, battery EVs are here, and people are buying them with real money (like my self). Insummary: I’m 100% sold on the concept of battery EV as the future mode of transport. Having probably spent the best part of £50K+ on ICE cars over the years, I cannot see my self parting with a single penny for another ICE machine. The Leaf may only have 1/4 the power of previous BMW 335i, but the EV drivetrain is so much better than the ICE setup I’m not missing the BMW at all. Finally I cannot do a whole write up on EVs without mentioning the car I will own next …The Tesla S. Tesla is a technology young company with little previous experience of building cars. but in 2013 with only their second ever product, the Tesla S. Consumer Reports (American version of Which) called it the ' The best car ever tested'....2 years running...Can you imagine how good the 2nd/3rd generation EVs will be??...I cannot wait to see how the car industry develops over the next 5-10 years, I think much like how Apple shock up the entire mobile phone market in 2008, Tesla is going to do the same to the car industry. http://www.consumerr...-2014/index.htm

Picked up 5 days ago, done 125 miles so far, only had to 'pay' to recharge it once so far . So currently <1.5 p/mile in re-fuel costs.

.....Really