Education is the key................. or is it?

[StevoD]

Edited May 16, 2014 by StevoD

[350zedd]

There are alternatives to institutionalised education.

[gangzoom]

Hummm.....maybe 5% of the population have enough talent/brains to make a good living it without 'formal' education but the top paid jobs in the uk last few years.

 

1: CEOs

2: Pilots/Flight engineers

3: Medical practitioners

4: Marketing/sales directors

5: Lawyers

 

Try getting into those jobs without good grades...

 

I hated exams in school, but at 32 still doing them!! But I for one am glad my parents very strict and forced me to 'conform' to the established education system, I know I certainly wouldn't be so financially secure as I am now without a decent formal education.

Edited May 16, 2014 by gangzoom

[350zedd]

I'm talking more up to GCSE level rather than higher education

[Marcus01]

Hummm.....maybe 5% of the population have enough talent/brains to make a good living it without 'formal' education but the top paid jobs in the uk last few years.

 

1: CEOs

2: Pilots/Flight engineers

3: Medical practitioners

4: Marketing/sales directors

5: Lawyers

 

Try getting into those jobs without good grades...

 

I hated exams in school, but at 32 still doing them!! But I for one am glad my parents very strict and forced me to 'conform' to the established education system, I know I certainly wouldn't be so financially secure as I am now without a decent formal education.

Not everyone is good or have an ability to pass exams.

I have always been involved in engineering and most of the graduates etc I have come across are engineers in theory and practically they are useless.

Its all well and good drawing something but having the skills to make it is not equatable in paper.

As a recent customer of mine said, I wish I was a bit thicker at school, then I wouldn't have been pushed by the school to do exams. I would have been taught more hand skills.

It appeared to him that most of the kids he went to school with who were taught hand skills all seem to be running there own businesses and reaping better rewards than most of the kids pushed through the exam qualification route.

I managed a grand total of 5 GCSE results grade 3 or less but now run 3 different businesses.

If this country is to get up of its are then pack up religious education, history and other such dross replace it with hand skills and more business related education

It appears to me we are teaching kids to pass a test not educating them and ultimately they all have a nice piece of paper saying they have passed but most have no idea of work or business.

Whilst I accept there are a small percentage of graduates coming out of university who will go on to be in the 5% quoted previously a greater number will still have to work for Tesco.

Before I get mashed for my piece, my daughter is currently at uni and working had for her degree and by god I hope she is one of that 5% as the financial stress she will carry for most of her life is something I am glad I haven't got.

This country didn't become great because everybody had an office job.

[StevoD]

I know 3 people i went to school with who have been to uni and passed with flying colours now working at tesco as a counter boys and riding a push-bikes to work i estimate hes on £14k a year maybe

i left school passed a mechanics NVQ level 3 with volkswagen now working at welding company with the zed and alot more than 14k

 

they were A grade GCSE i was C/D GCSE

 

as said above kids these days are trained to pass an exam nothing else no life lessons etc all the GCSE means is you could understand what was said in certain sentence of macbeth, i did crap in English lit does it make me stupid and useless because Shakespeare work has no interest in me no

 

All government run education is, is a test to see how well you listen and take it but if its of something you have no interest in you wont doesn't mean your thick or dumb

Edited May 16, 2014 by StevoD

[coldel]

I find both those clips quite disturbing if I am honest. I believe I owe a % of my success in life to the teachers at my god awful school who believed in me and helped me be better than I thought I could be. My school was ranked 3rd from bottom in the country but I got through with GCSEs to go on to A-Levels to a degree and I still use a lot of that education now (statistics, accounting, economics, mathematical modelling and so on). I find it shocking nowadays the level of mathematical incompetence across the UK, I ask someone to add two numbers together and out comes a smart phone with a calculator App.

 

Yes you can shout out names such as Richard Branson, who had a very rich family (father was a barrister) which makes life a lot easier when setting up your own companies. But for every Richard Branson or Steve Jobs there will be 1000 other school drop outs who go on to struggle at the bottom of the job pile. Its just the same as usual, people complaining and picking holes in things but without offering any other viable option. I could quite happily write a rap about a number of people that are worth just as much money who did have an education, what does that prove?

 

As for uni students in Tesco, maybe that is the case, but all my mates from uni are currently running their own businesses or in very well paid jobs (left uni in 1998). The problem now is not so much the students, although there will be dim ones, but the lack of jobs on offer - we put a job out there for a grad and we get 150 applicants minimum - all with the right qualifications.

[wizurd]

350z I don't think gcse's mean much. A levels more so. As for degrees. Tricky one. Most of my mates and me included struggled to find jobs after uni. But that was due to the lack of jobs in our fields. Now a few years on all of em are doing really well. Technically I am too but don't enjoy my job, different story.

I also agree that for the vast majority without qualifications you will struggle to get above a certain grade. There are very few mega successful business people (the millionaires I mean) that haven't had significant help from either loaded parents/family or friends.

All I'd say is for god sake do something you enjoy what ever the pay.

Edited May 16, 2014 by wizurd

[wizurd]

O and I believe that doing something you enjoy should make it easier for you to be really successful in it. If it doesn't feel like a job you'll always do better.

[StevoD]

thats fair enough mate i dont now when you was in school but i left in 2007 my english exam and the 3 years before were basically spent looking into macbeth and another 1-2 subjects that were in the exams we covered nothing else, so when you pass that test all youve done is prove you know about them 2-3 things nothing else which i think is what its getting at,

 

have i used anything from macbeth or mice and men since leaving school no so does me doing below average at english makes me dumb no because all it was is a letter given regarding the level of knowledge of 2 story's

[coldel]

When it comes to getting a post degree job, no one will want to know your GCSE results, or in some cases A-Levels, they become the stepping stones to a degree. But yeah I agree, don't sit in a job you hate for 40 years - you will get to retirement look back and wonder what the hell you did with your life!

[coldel]

I also did Of Mice and Men at school haha. Only book I read, but I got my English GCSEs and enjoyed it actually. I have to say having lived abroad, it is embarrassing the lack of education we have here into things such as History ( I know someone said it was dross), we like to think we are a proud nation of Brits but most people know naff all about our own past, how we got to our current state of affairs and why our culture contains what it does. I volunteered some free time a while back to helping out in a local school, kids loved History actually - it was the usual Mathematics subjects they hated (which are ironically probably the most important, but I am biased!)

[wizurd]

thats fair enough mate i dont now when you was in school but i left in 2007 my english exam and the 3 years before were basically spent looking into macbeth and another 1-2 subjects that were in the exams we covered nothing else, so when you pass that test all youve done is prove you know about them 2-3 things nothing else which i think is what its getting at,

 

have i used anything from macbeth or mice and men since leaving school no so does me doing below average at english makes me dumb no because all it was is a letter given regarding the level of knowledge of 2 story's

 

Totally agree that the majority of stuff you learn in school is no use. I can't think of much that I learned in school that I use now for example Shakespeare or any religious education. I think it's like was said that a levels are suppose to get u in the mind set for degrees. Doesn't always work that's for sure when you look at the drop off rates for most courses after the first year. But I think that's the idea.

 

The basic stuff I learned though with regards to English and maths obviously has helped me.

 

I suppose the best thing is to do what you enjoy. At any stage in your life. If you don't enjoy school and can see something you're good at that you can make into a career go for it. Also I think there's too much pressure to be 'successful'. Means people take jobs for long periods of their lives just to earn mega bucks. But really it doesn't make you happy.

[StevoD]

fair enough mate ,

 

but success isnt granted on your grade tho well it is to a amount if all you want is money and your own office,but what good is being the richest man in the grave yard,

success can be grade in different ways im really jealous of one of the slow kid in my year who now travels the world with a company welding, no matter how far you've gone in uni doesnt make hands on skills, the kid was always creative and good with his hands making things but was useless at statistics and English because it bored him would i say hes successful being paid to travel the world yea and plastering images on social media so everyone stuck doing 9-5 in an accounts office doing the rat run,and these these people posting they hate there job there bored they wish there could do other stuff i would, hes earning half they are hes much happier and less stressed and enjoys what he does

Edited May 16, 2014 by StevoD

[wizurd]

And no. Not knowing your Mac Beth doesn't make you dumb lol. When people do judge based on things like that it gets my goat. Get that even now out of education. People thinking they are God's gift to IT and databases. What they don't realise is that no body knows it all and everyone will be wrong at some stage. Stopping with that though before I start to rant lol

[rtbiscuit]

Video is good in theory, but fatally flawed.

 

Yes the people he mentioned all made it without a formal education. But of all the people in all the schools who drop out or don't make it; they probably count for less than 1%. How many who dropout end up on the dole, how many never make it past basic menial jobs? Yes there are many who do well, and who progress faster and better outside the system. But compared to those with a good and progressive education still not as many.

 

Also bear in mind all the people mentioned did well in a climate where work was far more available, jobs were easier to walk into. We have degree based people in menial jobs as there is so much competition for jobs. Degrees are common place and no longer hold the elite door opening key they used to. The key now if you go that route; is the eight degree from the right university.

 

I'm a strong believer in apprenticeships, but not just for the weak students, we should be sending our a grades on them as well.

 

As a teacher I'm more than aware that the GCSE system is only suitable for probably 80% of the students. But the issue is aspects like league tables, Ofsted and competing for the best students locally means that education is skewed to passing exams to get the best results. Before education can change the political system has to change.

 

With regards to subjects like history, English and RS, etc they are all designed to develop well rounded and culturally aware students, that can look at information, weigh it on its own merit and make their own decision on what is right.

 

Like it or not for many kids in the system, school is the most stable element in their life, and with more and more of the parenting being done by the system. School is more than just an education system. Its a family network and support structure.

 

I teach design & technology, and yes I teach a lot of practical skills, behind most of my lessons is the teaching of how to solve problems. And how to think independently. And the likes of PE, teach the interpersonal skills and leadership they'll need in the future. As well as trying to keep them fit.

 

Like it or not, we're competing on a global market, and with the likes of china having a gifted and talented number of students that exceeds all our kids put together, starts to put into perspective how hard the future is going to be for those without an education.

 

This might put things in perspective

 

[coldel]

Yep no doubting people without degrees also do well, I am pretty useless with practical stuff despite a whole family of car mechanics! There will always be a market out there for people who come out of school and just throw themselves into a trade, some go on to make decent money some don't.

 

Just to the point I made above, there will always be successful school dropouts, but equally, if not more, successful school 'stayers' - I read somewhere that over the last 10 years adults with a degree in the UK on average earn more than non degree holders by something like £10k- £15k a year.

[wizurd]

fair enough mate ,

 

but success isnt granted on your grade tho well it is to a amount if all you want is money and your own office,but what good is being the richest man in the grave yard,

success can be grade in different ways im really jealous of one of the slow kid in my year who now travels the world with a company welding, no matter how far you've gone in uni doesnt make hands on skills, the kid was always creative and good with his hands making things but was useless at statistics and English because it bored him would i say hes successful being paid to travel the world yea and plastering images on social media so everyone stuck doing 9-5 in an accounts office doing the rat run,and these these people posting they hate there job there bored they wish there could do other stuff i would, hes earning half they are hes much happier and less stressed and enojys what he does

 

Spot on. I agree that money is not the be all and end all. Also good grades don't guarantee anything. Learnt that after uni when I had to go back to working in a wind screen wiper factory just to find a job. I didn't actually think my degree was worth anything for a few years but then the last two roles I've had I couldn't have got without the degree. Doesn't mean I'm all that happy though. But then I get bored easy

Working with you hands, being creative, I don't think is something you can learn. Either got it or you haven't and yes agree that it should be worth just as much in the job market as anything else. I'd argue the same for care based roles where people have some really awful jobs they have to do and get paid pittance to do it.

I'm my world lol I'd be turning a lot of the wage structures on their heads.

[StevoD]

fair enough mate ,

 

but success isnt granted on your grade tho well it is to a amount if all you want is money and your own office,but what good is being the richest man in the grave yard,

success can be grade in different ways im really jealous of one of the slow kid in my year who now travels the world with a company welding, no matter how far you've gone in uni doesnt make hands on skills, the kid was always creative and good with his hands making things but was useless at statistics and English because it bored him would i say hes successful being paid to travel the world yea and plastering images on social media so everyone stuck doing 9-5 in an accounts office doing the rat run,and these these people posting they hate there job there bored they wish there could do other stuff i would, hes earning half they are hes much happier and less stressed and enojys what he does

 

Spot on. I agree that money is not the be all and end all. Also good grades don't guarantee anything. Learnt that after uni when I had to go back to working in a wind screen wiper factory just to find a job. I didn't actually think my degree was worth anything for a few years but then the last two roles I've had I couldn't have got without the degree. Doesn't mean I'm all that happy though. But then I get bored easy

 

 

[coldel]

Like the vid Rich, saw something as well the other day that was along the lines that of all the information generated since the dawn of time on this planet, 90% of it has been generated in the last 8 years or something equally incredible.

[wizurd]

Brilliant vid that. Sounds so simple doesn't it. The problem is that the entire way of life we have is constructed to keep people working within its rules and boundaries. Money and the need to have it in order to live is the problem. All getting a bit philosophical now lol

[rtbiscuit]

The amount of people who get a degree and think they can walk into a 60k a year job are deluded. Even with a degree, everyone starts at the bottom. A degree is just a key to a door.

 

It allows you to network. And sadly with many things in life people soon learn that its not always what you know, but who you know. And in some accessions the uni you went to can be that connection.

[wizurd]

The amount of people who get a degree and think they can walk into a 60k a year job are deluded. Even with a degree, everyone starts at the bottom. A degree is just a key to a door.

 

It allows you to network. And sadly with many things in life people soon learn that its not always what you know, but who you know. And in some accessions the uni you went to can be that connection.

so true that! Only a few degrees instantly give people access to reasonable wages, I'm thinking teachers, Dr's, lawyers. But then all of them also have to do years of further and continuous training to earn those 60k plus figures.

[rtbiscuit]

This is an urban legend, apparently bill gates 11 rules speech. Although its fake, most of the points ring true

 

----------Whether you like Bill Gates or not...this is pretty

cool. Here's some advice Bill Gates recently dished out

at a high school speech about 11 things they did not

learn in school. He talks about how feel-good,

politically correct teaching has created a full

generation of kids with no concept of reality and how

this concept sets them up for failure in the real

world.

 

RULE 1

Life is not fair - get used to it.

 

RULE 2

The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world

will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel

good about yourself.

 

RULE 3

You will NOT make 40 thousand dollars a year right out

of high school. You won't be a vice president with

car phone, until you earn both.

 

RULE 4

If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a

boss. He doesn't have tenure.

 

RULE 5

Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your

grandparents had a different word for burger flipping

they

called it Opportunity.

 

RULE 6

If you mess up,it's not your parents' fault, so don't

whine about your mistakes, learn from them.

 

RULE 7

Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as

they are now. They got that way from paying your bills,

cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about

how cool you are. So before you save the rain forest

from the parasites of your parent's generation, try

delousing the closet in your own room.

 

 

RULE 8

Your school may have done away with winners and losers,

but life has not. In some schools they have abolished

failing grades and they'll give you as many times as

you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the

slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.

 

RULE 9

Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get

summers off and very few employers are interested in

helping you find yourself. Do that on your own time.

 

RULE 10

Television is NOT real life. In real life people

actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.

 

RULE 11

Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for

one.

[sipar69]

I think there's a place for people who did and didn't do well in formal education but I also think the 'I don't use anything I learnt and therefore education is pointless' argument is a bit shortsighted. I did a degree in Politics and Philosophy (left in 1994). I'm neither a politician nor a philosopher but that doesn't mean I think my time at university was wasted. You learn a lot more from doing a degree (and education in general) than the actual facts of the subject - how to research, how to weigh up competing arguments and form a view, how to present your ideas in writing etc, how to interact with people of your own age (not to mention all the practical stuff that comes with uni about living away from home etc) all of which have been very useful to me throughout my career and life.

 

The job I currently have did not require a degree - I started on very low money and worked on building my career for 20 years but I still think the degree was a worthwhile experience in many different ways.

Edited May 16, 2014 by sipar69