Colin747 Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) While I understand the theory of heel-toe downshifting I've always wondered if there is a tolerance to what RPM range you should attempt to match or does bringing the engine speed too far over the transmission speed just is damaging? i.e. Should you be within X RPM of the transmission speed when you blip the throttle? To give an example to explain what I mean: Perfect scenario - I'm driving in third at 2,000 RPM and downshift into second. I blip the throttle to 3,000 RPM and when the clutch is released the revs stay at 3,000 RPM (the actual RPM of the transmission). Hypothetical scenario - I'm driving in third at 2,000 RPM and downshift into second. I blip the throttle to 4,500 RPM and when the clutch is released the revs drop to 3,000 RPM (the actual RPM of the transmission). Is that hypothetical scenario causing just as much wear to the clutch compared to not rev-matching at all? Edited June 16, 2017 by Colin747 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeybrain1234 Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 😳 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aashenfox Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) That is indeed what you'll do (as well as press the brakes too hard and all kinds of other fun nooby errors) while learning to heel-toe, but you'll get the hang of it. Nothing else needs to be said. Learn by doing and it'll come to you. The right shoes help (there are no right shoes, its a personal thing), and a lightweight flywheel made it a little easier for me, cos the default throttle input on the Z is a bit laggy (why some people fit those pedal booster things) so the light flywheel helps the engine get up and down a bit quicker. I still don't always hit exactly exactly the revs I want (and in these cases, you can be quicker or slower with the clutch to correct, to a point) especially when I'm driving 'excitedly', but it's close enough. Slightly over-revving is somewhat damped by the fact you're on the brakes anyway, under revving simply feels like you didn't heel-toe enough, so slows you down markedly faster, again not the end of the world but will ruin your line on turn in. Edited June 16, 2017 by Aashenfox 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin747 Posted June 16, 2017 Author Share Posted June 16, 2017 That is indeed what you'll do (as well as press the brakes too hard and all kinds of other fun nooby errors) while learning to heel-toe, but you'll get the hang of it. Nothing else needs to be said. Learn by doing and it'll come to you. The right shoes help (there are no right shoes, its a personal thing), and a lightweight flywheel made it a little easier for me, cos the default throttle input on the Z is a bit laggy (why some people fit those pedal booster things) so the light flywheel helps the engine get up and down a bit quicker. I still don't always hit exactly exactly the revs I want (and in these cases, you can be quicker or slower with the clutch to correct, to a point) especially when I'm driving 'excitedly', but it's close enough. Slightly over-revving is somewhat damped by the fact you're on the brakes anyway, under revving simply feels like you didn't heel-toe enough, so slows you down markedly faster, again not the end of the world but will ruin your line on turn in. Thanks for your reply, a lightweight flywheel is certainly on my list of things to do. It probably doesn't help that I'm normally in heavy boots when trying it haha ahh well, it's all a learning experience 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aashenfox Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) Welcome mate. Any thin soled, slim shoe is a good driving shoe. I use to daily wear a pair of these (Adidas Monaco, I think), they are not pro driving shoes, they're driving oriented fashion shoes, but they are an excellent driving shoe, and a nice looking trainer. I will never be someone who changes shoes to go for a drive, so my 'daily' trainers have to take this into account when I buy them. I do not drive spiritedly in my work shoes (not boots, leather soled slip ons, but equally inappropriate), I would never forgive myself if I 'messed it up' because of that. Edited June 16, 2017 by Aashenfox 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colesl4w Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 These are my go-to driving shoes. Can get them for £6.35: 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brillomaster Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 neither are good... in extreme examples, under revving might lock the driven wheels, and induce a spin akin to pulling the handbrake. over revving may cause the rear wheels to over rotate, also inducing a spin akin to a clutch kick/doing a burnout. but as Aashen says, practice makes perfect. I find it a lot easier on a track while braking at 100% effort, find it hard to brake lightly and rev match, as I struggle to keep a constant pressure on the brake pedal. a lot easier when you really stand on the brakes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aashenfox Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) :O You're a legend, this is EXACTLY the kind of thing I've been looking for (but would possibly never have considered) for wearing when sim racing. Socks are too thin and slippy and shoes are too heavy. I don't know if I could keep a pair of those in size 11 in my REAL car, for fear of misunderstandings when valeted or parked by others , but in my sim cockpit, no worries! Edited June 16, 2017 by Aashenfox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin747 Posted June 16, 2017 Author Share Posted June 16, 2017 . I find it a lot easier on a track while braking at 100% effort, find it hard to brake lightly and rev match, as I struggle to keep a constant pressure on the brake pedal. a lot easier when you really stand on the brakes. I find that tricky as well when practising on the road, I tend to find that I "stab" the brakes a tiny bit by accident when going for the throttle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brillomaster Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 PS Puma Drift Cat 5s FTW! lovely pedal feel, not too pricey, not too racy that you look like a Hamilton wannabe in daily use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 . I find it a lot easier on a track while braking at 100% effort, find it hard to brake lightly and rev match, as I struggle to keep a constant pressure on the brake pedal. a lot easier when you really stand on the brakes. I find that tricky as well when practising on the road, I tend to find that I "stab" the brakes a tiny bit by accident when going for the throttle. This has always been my fail when trying to learn this particular skill, I am hopeless at it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brillomaster Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) Following on from heel and toeing, for gawds sake don't try to left foot brake while moving slowing in traffic... you'll press the pedal too hard, then the anti stall instinct will kick in and you'll depress the clutch - except it'll still be the brake pedal, so you'll come lurching to a stop AND you'll stall, and you'll be thoroughly confused and worried you've forgotten how to drive. surprisingly, left foot braking is also easier on track, little dab on the brake with your left foot while mid corner to tuck the line in feels surprisingly natural. Edited June 16, 2017 by brillomaster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin747 Posted June 16, 2017 Author Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) Following on from heel and toeing, for gawds sake don't try to left foot brake while moving slowing in traffic... you'll press the pedal too hard, then the anti stall instinct will kick in and you'll depress the clutch - except it'll still be the brake pedal, so you'll come lurching to a stop AND you'll stall, and you'll be thoroughly confused and worried you've forgotten how to drive. surprisingly, left foot braking is also easier on track, little dab on the brake with your left foot while mid corner to tuck the line in feels surprisingly natural. hahhahaha funny you should mention that, first time I ever tried left foot braking I thankfully made sure I was in a large empty area...you'd never think you'd stop that quick when using your left foot..... Edited June 16, 2017 by Colin747 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aashenfox Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 I don't think anyone finds it easy to modulate the brake while rev matching with the heel, it's a very difficult skill. As stated, when driving hard, it's much easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aashenfox Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) Following on from heel and toeing, for gawds sake don't try to left foot brake while moving slowing in traffic... you'll press the pedal too hard, then the anti stall instinct will kick in and you'll depress the clutch - except it'll still be the brake pedal, so you'll come lurching to a stop AND you'll stall, and you'll be thoroughly confused and worried you've forgotten how to drive. surprisingly, left foot braking is also easier on track, little dab on the brake with your left foot while mid corner to tuck the line in feels surprisingly natural. You just described my first effort at left boot braking, and why I don't even try any more, not even in sim racing, I'm simply too many years programmed that the left foot operates the clutch, it's not in me to 'fix' that now. I can't even do it in sim racing. Wanna feel bad? Watch this pro le mans driver, who is a ****ing legend in his own right, do sim racing at the highest level while joking and acting insane, I would give a bollock for his skill, but it's too late for me now... Just noticed he didn't show the pedals in that one, but it's still well worth watching to get a feel for the guy (one of my favourite channels), here's one with the pedals visible, his resting position is left foot on brake. :/ Edited June 16, 2017 by Aashenfox 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyZ Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Yeah first time I braked with my left foot it wasn't pretty. It came to me quickly though, and even though I rarely do it I find it easy these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kieran O'Quick Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Those clutch-less cars with a normal gear shift were a great way to introduce yourself to the windscreen. The old left foot just had to do something as soon as you'd touch the gearstick... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 I'm OK at left foot braking. My heel toe isn't great though. I tend to drive in converse as they're pretty thin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyZ Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Regarding heel and toe during gentle braking, I've had problems in the past but I've found tweaking my driving position has helped with that. If your weight is leaning too far forwards then it's hard to rotate the foot without sufficient pressure on the toe. [sad] this is the kind of stuff that keeps me up at night [/sad] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 I also find I have to rotate one way. Are you supposed to heel brake or heel accelerator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyZ Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Toe brake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyZ Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 And heel accelerate, obvs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay84 Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 See my legs rotate the other way, heel on the brake using my toes to regulate the accelerator. Does anyone else find their entire rythm is car based but you can't dance? My SO gets miffed I can do 8 different things at once in the car at full speed but can't match rythm to music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyZ Posted June 16, 2017 Share Posted June 16, 2017 Hmmm, well I'm a big advocate of doing things in the way that suits you, but the toe (or ball of the foot) offers much better sensitivity where needed, which in this case is the brake pedal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auto Posted June 19, 2017 Share Posted June 19, 2017 (edited) Bye Edited November 17, 2022 by Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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