S/Cs, TTs and Con Rods

[Guest prescience]

Spoke earlier to the guy who bought my car [Vortech S/C].

 

He lives local to DSA (took over G-Force's premises) in Aylesbury and he told me that they currently have 6 FI Zs in for major engine repair due to damage caused to the weak con rods He did say 6 in ATM rather than in recently.

 

They were variously S/Cs and TTs - mine has caused no issues but he is thinking of getting rid nonetheless. He describes the con rods as being 'made of toffee' (according to DSA)

 

These problems really do contradict with experience in the US and is a puzzle at least on that score.

[lomoto]

Spoke earlier to the guy who bought my car [Vortech S/C].

 

He lives local to DSA (took over G-Force's premises) in Aylesbury and he told me that they currently have 6 FI Zs in for major engine repair due to damage caused to the weak con rods He did say 6 in ATM rather than in recently.

 

They were variously S/Cs and TTs - mine has caused no issues but he is thinking of getting rid nonetheless. He describes the con rods as being 'made of toffee' (according to DSA)

 

These problems really do contradict with experience in the US and is a puzzle at least on that score.

 

 

frighteningly expensive consequences with FI, I certainly wouldnt entertain this route now with all the bad publicity recently...not without major engine internals being replaced with H/D items..

[ir_fuel]

Wasn't it already stated on the forum before that the conrods are the weak part of the engine when going the F/I route?

[Guest prescience]

Wasn't it already stated on the forum before that the conrods are the weak part of the engine when going the F/I route?

 

Many times by myself and others. S/Cs have been fairly immune to date though in the UK; we were all aware of the APS blow-ups.

 

Tim, about 10k for a rebuild

[sl114]

Can you not replace to con rods with new stiffer/stronger ones? Or is it not that simple

[lomoto]

Wasn't it already stated on the forum before that the conrods are the weak part of the engine when going the F/I route?

 

Many times by myself and others. S/Cs have been fairly immune to date though in the UK; we were all aware of the APS blow-ups.

 

Tim, about 10k for a rebuild

 

more than my cars worth, it would scrap it sooner put a bit more to the car and buy a 911 than go FI I think, mind you I do like the new Mustang(shame it's only available as a left hooker)

[Guest prescience]

Also,

 

I am assuming that 10k is back to stock motor - a built motor would be at least 50% again IMO; so its 10k and sell the kit as well

[live2themaxuk]

I cannot believe a rebuilt is 10K!! What planet at these rebuilders on , 10k!!!

 

 

The parts arnt THAT expensive, are they?

 

And the labour? How many hours would it take to uprate some conrods etc!

 

Geez louise

 

I wonna go this route eventually, but for 10k + the Turbo kit! Hell no, not worth it IMO

 

Jamie

[Baptist]

I'd like to see the evidence from DSA myself, I wouldnt believe a word that the previous company that occupied that premises said, and I believe that alot of the staff remain under the new company.

 

As far as rebuilds go, its not just parts, its the labour costs that are the killer. Although your talking a couple of grand for the basic of parts. Add on engine removal, engine stripping, machining costs, rebuild and assembly costs, then re-installation and it gets very pricey indeed. Then you come to the question, well, if my engine is uprated, why not get more power out of it, off you go again.

[captint]

Also,

 

I am assuming that 10k is back to stock motor - a built motor would be at least 50% again IMO; so its 10k and sell the kit as well

 

Theres no way that the engine is a 10K rebuild back to stock, that must be a 10k forged components.

[captint]

So can you just do the rods?

[Baptist]

Not really. The pistons are not really suitable for FI, either, so they would also need changing. You will also need uprated studs, head studs, head gaskets, crank regrind, new big ends (whether you uprate them or not, is personal choice).

 

Like I say, the costs are mostly in labour, so just changing the rods alone wouldnt be very cost effective in the long run. While you've got it in bits, you might as well do the job properly.

 

What I've described above, is a basic bottom end upgrade.

 

But if you knew you had a bottom end that was capable of holding much more than 400bhp, wouldnt you want to explore the realms of more power????

[live2themaxuk]

You can buy already built/machined bottom ends from the States. Surely that is the best option. Then its just a case of unplugging the old short blovk and plugging in the new one primativly speaking

 

 

J

[Baptist]

If only it were that simple. You still need an engine builder who knows what he's doing to do all the re-assembly. I wanted to get my work done by a proven UK builder, who would give me some after service for the future, which I've got.

You still need to get the motor pulled, re-assembled, re-installed, run in, etc.

 

Then you will need the setup re-tuning.

[Removed]

You can buy already built/machined bottom ends from the States. Surely that is the best option. Then its just a case of unplugging the old short blovk and plugging in the new one primativly speaking

 

 

J

 

if the engine mounts are the same (which should be) that is the road I'd consider most. Then find a UK based shop to do the swap/FI install and tune.

 

Baptist is right about what if something goes wrong though... although the US are only a phone call away

[Guest prescience]

Also,

 

I am assuming that 10k is back to stock motor - a built motor would be at least 50% again IMO; so its 10k and sell the kit as well

 

Theres no way that the engine is a 10K rebuild back to stock, that must be a 10k forged components.

 

Ask yourself how many days do you think it would take to remove, strip, do any re-machining necessary, re-build, test etc multiply by 8 hours at say £80/hour add VAT and add on the parts (including block**), you will get to a larger number than you think. It may not be as much as 10k but it will be close.

 

** you're lucky (a relative term here) if a rod goes w/out putting a hole in the side of the block

[Guest prescience]

I am gonna say what I always say though

 

I know most about the Vortech S/C. There have been 5 installs in the UK and the only one which has given any problems was a non-standard install (due to problems which its not worth going into)

 

The 5 people are:

myself, Steve-B, baptist, StephenG and spill.

 

None of the vortechs has blown on the stock Vortech map (or very similar to). I believe that this is because:

- torque is much less with a S/C than a TT hence much less strain on the rods

- the stock vortech tune is very safe. AFR at 6000 rpm is a high 9 or low 10 amd at 6000rpm 15 degrees of timing is pulled (timing advance reduced by 15 degrees)

 

I am aware of only one Vortech blow in the US (I must admit I haven't been on the US boards for 2 or 3 months) and that was booger who by his own admission was pushing the fuel and timing way too close for comfort

[Ian]

So to do the Vortech theres no need to do as much internal work. How much internal work is needed to safely run it? Is 380-400 bhp a realistic target?

[Baptist]

Its not a question of as much, more a case of its safer than a TT setup on standard internals.

[ir_fuel]

S/C is safer than a Turbo, coz it generates less stress, but still, its always a bit risky upping the power on an engine

[Guest prescience]

S/C is safer than a Turbo, coz it generates less stress, but still, its always a bit risky upping the power on an engine

 

Very true.

 

I must admit though, i am rather tempted to buy my car back (see first post) pocketing a few squid in the process

 

No, i mustn't

[Digsy]

Go on, D!!!

[Guest prescience]

maybe next time

[StephenG]

S/C is safer than a Turbo, coz it generates less stress, but still, its always a bit risky upping the power on an engine

 

Very true.

 

I must admit though, i am rather tempted to buy my car back (see first post) pocketing a few squid in the process

 

No, i mustn't

Ha ha ha, excellent idea

 

It is worth noting that a TT's biggest plus is also it's biggest issue - the constant, high levels of torque on tap throughout the revs. Because the SC only really pushes the engine at the higher revs, you only get stresses at that time.

 

By that thinking, you could surmise that a SC used on a track, that was constantly driven at or around the limiter is as likely to go pop as a TT doing similar. People agree or not?

[lomoto]

I think Nissan designed the con rods etc. for the stock horsepower, made down to a price for mass production, if you start increasing the loads it was not initially designed to produce your asking for trouble.. no manufacturer over engineers engine internals nowadays.. so if your going for extra horses it will only make sense to have the engine internals modified to suit.. so I would definitely say that the SC would end up in the same mess as a T/T without beefier big ends