Engine Codes P0011 and P0021

[Erni902]

Took my car (2004 UK DE 350Z) to Abbey yesterday for an uprev. When running the car on the dyno in stock guise Mark noticed that the car had some timing issues and was logging P0011 and P0021 as the fault codes. These relate to valve timing control solenoids on both bank 1 and bank 2.

 

As it was 1500hrs on a Friday afternoon it was not quite the best time for either of us to have them check it out there and then. Not being local to Abbey means leaving the car with them was not an option either.

 

Now I have a few garages including a tuner near to me that I will getting the car into for them to investigate but in the meantime I thought I would post up here to see if anyone has experienced the same symptoms.

 

So everything has been fine. Then I fitted a set of decats a month or so ago. After around 50-100miles or so the engine management light came on. My bluetooth reader would not read the Zed codes but I just assumed this was the O2 sensors complaining that the gases had not been cleaned by the cat. Car still ran fine so wasnt worried, especially knowing that the uprev was coming.

 

The next thing of note was that last weekend I took off my short ram pop charger kit and replaced it with a cold air intake kit that sits behind the bumper. After I fired the car up and took it for a drive I noticed that she seemed a little flat at the lower revs and picked up around 4k rpm. I thought this may be a characteristic of the CAI and that it could maybe be tuned during the uprev so again wasnt really bothered much.

 

Now other than the flat spot down low the car drives fine, no stuttering, no rough idle and the oil pressure sits at around 25psi when hot (which has been the same for the past 8k miles since Ive owned the car).

 

Does anyone think that the fitting of the CAI could cause this kind of behavior (flat spot) or if this is just a wild coincidence. Bearing in mind it was immediately after fitting and not a delayed. I cant refit the short ram kit to prove as I have now sold it!

 

I am also not sure at what point the above codes were logged. It could have been at the same time as the decat codes or it could have been after the intake install or anywhere in between.

 

Some threads say the oil gallery gaskets cure these codes but Ive not had any drop in oil pressure. Other threads say this is cured by replacing the actual solenoids associated with each code but the symptoms of these failing seem to be rough idling among others.

 

Any ideas from any of you guys would be much appreciated. As I say I will get this in to be looked at hopefully this week but thought Id post here in the mean time to pick your brains.

 

Hope everything makes sense and thanks in advance.

 

RESOLUTION

 

MISALIGNED FLYWHEEL

Edited April 20, 2017 by Erni902

[ZMANALEX]

Perhaps a clean of the MAF sensor may help with the flat spot.

 

Regarding the codes, I would delete and see if they come back as they may have been archived

 

If indeed you do have a timing issues and you require valve timing solenoids then I have plenty low mileage fully working in stock.

 

Another thing to consider is stretched chains.

 

Just drop me a PM if I can help further.

 

Alex.

[Erni902]

Perhaps a clean of the MAF sensor may help with the flat spot.

 

Regarding the codes, I would delete and see if they come back as they may have been archived

 

If indeed you do have a timing issues and you require valve timing solenoids then I have plenty low mileage fully working in stock.

 

Another thing to consider is stretched chains.

 

Just drop me a PM if I can help further.

 

Alex.

 

Thanks for the reply Alex. Ive got some electrical contact cleaner so will give the MAF a clean when I get back tomorrow.

 

Mark removed the codes and on the way home after about 60 miles the CEL came back on. I cant guarantee what codes have been logged at this point until I get them read in the week (Im assuming he didnt disable the decat codes yet).

 

I suppose one key fact I left out was that on the dyno the car was showing as -16 degrees on both banks at idle.

 

I deliberately didnt mention that Mark also mentioned perhaps stretched chains just to see if anyone else thought this a possibility.

 

How much do you charge for the solenoids should I need them?

 

Thanks again for the reply

[ZMANALEX]

PM on its way.

[Erni902]

Cheers for the PM and advice mate, hopefully the solenoids do the trick. I suppose the plus point to all of this is that my fuel economy has risen because Ive not driven it like a loon since Ive felt the flat spot.

[Erni902]

Thanks to ZmanAlex for the fast delivery of the solenoids. All fitted and codes cleared using the pedal dance. Car starts and idles perfectly so thats always good haha. Will take it for a spin shortly and test her out, got a few jobs I need to get done on the Porsche before it gets too dark so will have to be later on.

 

Will update when i get back.

 

On a side note does anyone know if the pedal dance actually clears the code and the history from the ECU or does it purely turn the CEL off? My bluetooth reader seems to work with every manufacturer other than Nissan lol. If it only turns the light off and doesnt clear the code from the ECU then Ill visit the tuner down the road and use their reader.

[Erni902]

So solenoids all in, car starts, idles and runs. Oil pressure fine.

 

Didnt really get a decent run out tonight and I couldnt really tell if there was a difference. I think I was thinking about it too much and trying to find a difference, at some points it felt different and at other it still felt a bit flat.

 

True test will be on my run home on Friday when I get to drive it the usual route with the usual traffic and will put enough miles on it to trigger the CEL if the fault is not resolved. Case of hurry up and wait now me thinks.

[Mark@Abbey m/s]

It isn't a solenoid issue I am afraid the datalogs from the ECU showing both cams aren't in the correct position @ idle.

 

They where both showing -16 deg this will put the cam control in limp mode (cams control will not work) this would be as the ECU will not be controlling the soleniods

 

The filter would of made no difference the DTC light coming back on maybe the de-cats causing this issue as I didn't leave a Uprev licesne in the car so the DTC for cat efficiency wasn't turned off.

 

The car drove fine but was low on torque due to the cam control not working.

 

I expect it would be one of the following issues

 

1, flywheel fitted in wrong position

2, cam chain stretched ans the cam sensors recording the cam is in the worng postion

.

 

Any questions ask away

[Erni902]

Cheers Mark, just tried to make a journey home and the car is misfiring like mad at anything above either 2.5krpm or anythong more than around 50% throttle. Car is also idling a little rough, fluctuating between around 400-750rpm but very slowly.

 

Any ideas as to whether any of the above 2 options could cause this. The previous owner said the car had a new clutch and flywheel fitted around a year ago, would it take this long for the ECU to realise it was fitted incorrectly?

 

Oh and just to add the car has no CEL illuminated at the moment. Only drove about 1 mile with the car like this before she was parked back up.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Erni902

[Erni902]

Right so I have just spent a few hours having a tinker, now this was mainly aimed at the misfiring rather than the timing issues. Just wanted to have a check that the coil packs and plugs etc were not degraded or failing. So visual inspections of the coil packs passed with no visible cracks/fractures etc. Tiny bit of oil on top of the cam cover but this could be due to the recent oil change she has had, as it was only on the passenger side, which is where the oil filler cap is located so could have just dribbled down.

 

No oil in plug chambers 2,3,4,5 and very very minimal in chamber 1,6. We are talking a couple of very small dots of oil so confident that its not oil in the chamber causing a short and no major rush to replace the seals/covers. All plugs did seem a little loose for my liking when I removed them. I had a brand new set of plugs anyway so would've been rude not to replace them all.

 

Put the car back together started her up and the CEL and TCL OFF lights both illuminated. Press of the go faster pedal and nothing happens at all. Hmmm, check over all my work and I had unplugged the connector on the side of the throttle body but forgot to re-connect DOH!!! Connected back up, reset the ECU and went for a spin.

 

Car now drives ok and pulls ok at around 75-80% throttle up to 6k rpm (I purposely didnt rev any higher) in 2nd-5th gears. It was raining so didnt nail it in 1st and didnt quite get to the speeds required for testing the same in 6th gear.

 

Full throttle however in any gear and after about 4-4.5k rpm she seems to stutter. It kind of feels a little like fuel cut as opposed to a misfire now. So could this be down to the cam timing or do I have to create a new thread with these symptoms as a completely different fault?

 

How can I check for a stretched timing chain? Is this something I can diagnose myself with step by step instructions or is it best having a garage perform the check? If I can do it myself then I can do it over the weekend. If not then I will have to wait until mid week when she is booked in at a local garage for them to check.

[Erni902]

To check for a stretched chain can I

 

1. Simply remove the cover over the water pump and feel the chain for slack?

 

If so:

 

2. Will I need new gaskets to go back on the cover when I put it back on?

 

3. Is it just the slack I am looking for or some other tell tale signs?

 

4.If there is no slack at the water pump am I to assume the chain is good?

 

5. Should I also removed the cover over the tensioner and see what state that is in too?

 

6. Is this fairly easily done with everything attached or will I need to start removing bumpers and belts etc?

 

TIA

Edited March 3, 2017 by Erni902

[Mark@Abbey m/s]

I doubt if the clutch was fitted over a year ago this is the issue as this will throw a DTC fairly quickly.

 

Engine front cover needs to be removed as you need to see the inlet/exhaust cam pulley crank timing timing marks.

[Erni902]

Roger that, many thanks Mark. So really we are looking at stretched chain or potentially plastic cover on the guide has slipped down causing the tensioner to be at full stretch and thus not enough to keep the tension.

 

Either way, I think if I am going to get the guys to check the chain it may be just aswell that it gets replaced at the same time seen as the covers will be off anyway as well as the labour cost involved (no point paying twice).

 

Even if its not the chain then at least I will know she has a new one anyway.

 

So when replacing the chain is there anything else that would be good to swap at the same time? Would it be an idea to change the oil gallery gaskets too whilst in there?

 

List I have so far:

 

- Timing chain kit including guides, sprockets, tensioner and all 3 chains

- Water pump and gasket

- New oil and filter

- Oil gallery gaskets

 

Is there anything else that is essential or recommended at this point? Are there any gaskets I need to replace for example the main cover gasket or will garage gasket sealant type stuff be sufficient?

 

Thanks in advance

[Erni902]

All dropped off at the garage with all parts and fluids required for the timing chain replacement. Work starts tomorrow, hopefully have her all back up and running sweet on Monday evening.

[Erni902]

Car is back. Timing chain and all associated parts have been replaced. Picked her up this afternoon and by god does it feel good to have her back.

 

As far as a difference in the return of the torque etc I cant comment yet.

 

Just about to embark on a long journey now so will see if I feel any difference. I have evoscan so just need to source a cable and I can start datalogging to see if the timing issue returns or has disappeared for good. Once confirmed good I shall book her in for an Abbey UpRev.

 

Fingers crossed she is all good.

[ZMANALEX]

Good to hear that you are sorted:

[Erni902]

Aha spoke too soon Alex

 

So it feels like the low end torque is back (although could be a placebo) which is good, didnt really go full throttle much but doesnt seem to be any issues in 1st, 2nd, 3rd gear. In 4th when accelerating (not quite full throttle) she misfires, just the once then carries on.

 

Same thing happened in 5th a little later.

 

Then cruising at 80mph in 6th gear at around 2750rpm (no fluctuation in revs or speed and was level straight road) she misfired again! Just once then carried on as normal. This happened once more about 30 minutes later.

 

Not sure if this is related to the original issue of advanced timing or maybe something else. A coil pack starting to break down maybe??

 

I will try and get hold of some datalogging gear so I can confirm if the timing is still an issue or if that is sorted. Any recommendations? I have an Evoscan license so just need an Openport cable I spose.

 

Oh and just to add, all pressures and dials look fine and there is no CEL on.

 

I am thinking several things to check are:

 

-MAF

-Injector(s)

-Coil Packs

 

Replaced the plugs a few weeks back and it made the issue slightly better (Was undriveable before but now driveable).

Edited March 29, 2017 by Erni902

[Erni902]

So thanks to SuperStu I now have an UpRev cable. Used it to pull the codes and it confirmed the ones I pulled on the misfire thread were correct.

 

Logged the Ignition timing advance and it was still showing -16.

 

So I still have the P0011 and P0021 codes and the advanced timing at idle.

[Mark@Abbey m/s]

Okay so they have changed the cam chain/tensioners?

 

 

I don't understand the -16 timing is this @ Idle?

 

Can you send me a datalog from the Uprev to my email addy?

 

I will need to send you a list to allow you to log the correct parameters so can I have an email addy please?

 

Thanks

[Erni902]

Yes mate the timing chain(s), tensioners, guides, sprockets etc have all been changed along with all aux belts and water pump etc.

 

Yes the timing advance is at idle. Ill PM you my email add and Ill runn a log of the correct parameters for you.

[Erni902]

Sent some datalogs to Mark and he has had a look and suggested a couple of things. Next on the agenda is getting her in to check the flywheel alignment.

 

Clutch and flywheel were fitted about 1yr and 12-13k miles ago (by the previous owner) and the issue has only seemed to rear its head now but the codes may have been logged as soon as it was fitted. As I never had or drove a Zed before this one and the flywheel was fitted by the previous owner (well by a garage while she owned the car) I never knew how it drove before it was fitted so have nothing to compare it to.

 

Will check back in next week with the verdict.

[Erni902]

Just chucked the old girl into the garage to have the flywheel alignment checked. Hopefully find out this afternoon or tomorrow whether this is the case.

 

Fingers crossed!!

[Erni902]

I believe my mechanics spoke to the guys at Horsham today with reference to my Zed and the flywheel. They said you were very helpful but when they got the bore cam through the inspection hole they couldn't really see much to indicate if it was in the correct position. Not enough to say 100% either way.

 

Due to this reason I have simply asked them to drop the box and then they will know categorically. The guys are very busy at the moment and were very helpful by squeezing me in to have a look. With Japfest fast approaching they are keen to get me back on the road with a working Zed so they will be in the workshop on Easter Monday to remove the box and take a look for me.

 

Question is, would it be best practice for me to order a new flywheel for them to install? If the flywheel has been misaligned for so long then could this cause any damage to unit?

[Erni902]

Just received a call from the garage, it looks like the DMF that was fitted to the car last year has 5 possible ways to install it. It was in fact fitted around a 1/4 turn out of alignment. They are now re-fitting the gearbox and I can collect the car after work. Hopefully this gets rid of these 2 codes once and for all. Will update the misfire thread if it also cures that problem too which Im hoping it will.

 

Fingers crossed.

[Erni902]

Ok so I have just got the car back and it was confirmed that the flywheel was indeed fitted incorrectly before I bought it. Hooked the car up to Cipher and reset the ecu, drove sensibly and all seemed ok so ran the car over 3k rpm with no misfires etc. Pulled up and checked the codes again...nothing!!

 

Set off and took it up to around 5k rpm with no issues blah blah blah. Checked codes again and nothing.

 

All seems good again. I have a long journey to do tomorrow over various roads so will get to feel the true power of the Zed seen as its been under powered since Ive owned it!

 

Many thanks to Mark@abbey for helping me out via email and also to the guys at Horsham that were liaising with CMC Tuning to help them diagnose.

Edited April 20, 2017 by Erni902