Lincolnbaggie Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 After some advice from those that know... I currently have a JL Audio e2150 driving my fronts (Rainbow speakers) from my Kenwood DNX7200, but want to get a small sub under the strut brace (10 inch single). Am I better getting a second two channel amp (another e2150?) to drive a JL sub (possibly the JL Audio 10w1v2-4?) or sell the e2150 I have and get a four channel amp (e4300?) to do the lot which could use the existing wiring etc. I don't really want to have to spend a fortune, and have found the e4300 for around £70-£100 on ebay and could possibly get £50 for my e2150. I don't know much about these things, so any advice would be welcome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Quads Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 2 amps or 1 amps really comes down to the specs of the various amps. If you can get an amp with the power to do the fronts and rears and have the controls you want then go with a single amp. Some people might want two amps if you are putting a build in as it will be symetical etc. Generally as long as your not going for a major power system you will be fine with a single amp. The most important thing is to make sure that what ever amp you get for the sub you make sure its well matched i.e. if you use a 4ohm 10w1-v2 with the two fo the channels bridged on the e4300 you would actually only be giving it 150W rms which is half of what the sub is capable of. Do you have a budget? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbaggie Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share Posted July 7, 2009 Cheers for the help Rob. Does it matter if the amp is only driving the sub to half what it's capable of? The blurb says the sub will handle from 50-300 watts RMS, so even though it's half what it can do it's three times what it needs (am I understanding that correctly?). How will that affect the sound? Budget is really as little as I can get away with but still get something half decent. I'm not after a "boom boom man in a van" noise, just a bit more controlled output from the lower end than the current set-up gives me. Maybe £200 for amp and sub. Is that realistic? Personally I think one amp will fit better and remove the need for more wiring to be added as the wiring specs for the 4300 are the same as the 2150 according to the manuals. Any recommendations on what amp/sub combo to go for would be appreciated (I'm not set on the JL, just heard good things about them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundus Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 If you have an underpowered amp then it will always be working really hard when you crank the volume. I always used amps that were slightly more powerful then I needed so that I could run them at around 70 - 80% of their power. You can get some really cheap amps now days with big power so Id take Robs advice and get one thats matched to your sub. Little bit more money now saves a lot of upset in the future! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbaggie Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share Posted July 7, 2009 If you have an underpowered amp then it will always be working really hard when you crank the volume. I always used amps that were slightly more powerful then I needed so that I could run them at around 70 - 80% of their power. You can get some really cheap amps now days with big power so Id take Robs advice and get one thats matched to your sub. Little bit more money now saves a lot of upset in the future! Cheers Bundus! Coming from a home hi-fi base I was always under the impression that the actual power of an amp wasn't that important - it was more the way it delivered it. Some hi-fi amps are under powered if you look at the specs but drive speakers very well and cost a lot more than big powered but unsubtle amps. Does that not apply to car audio as well. I would have thought a better design with slightly less power would work better than a cheaper amp that just has big power outputs. Maybe I'm wrong? What sort of amp/sub combo would you recommend for my set-up (bearing in mind it would have to drive the fronts as well as just a sub). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunset350z Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 You are quite correct. Top quality amps such as the ones from Genesis have a low power output but give really clean and powerful signals to the speakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundus Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Well Im always a big fan of doing ICE installs that look good as well as perform so if it were me Id be buying another amp to run the sub so that I could have the symetry of two amps. Then mount the two amps on a rack. Heres a couple pics of my install. You are so right that you dont need to have big power to be effective - Ive seen low powered amps kick a$$ but they are usually expensive ones. If you are on a budget then Id go for a high powered budget amp rather then go for a low powered budget amp. If you had money to burn then you can get a low powered amp from a high class manufacturer and you know its still going to be good. Are you using any amps to drive the rears? If not then Id suggest a 4 channel amp to do the fronts and rears and a separate amp for the sub. If you are on a budget then you can get one amp to do the lot. let me know what youd prefer and Ill look at some options for you mate! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbaggie Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share Posted July 7, 2009 Well Im always a big fan of doing ICE installs that look good as well as perform so if it were me Id be buying another amp to run the sub so that I could have the symetry of two amps. Then mount the two amps on a rack. Heres a couple pics of my install. You are so right that you dont need to have big power to be effective - Ive seen low powered amps kick a$$ but they are usually expensive ones. If you are on a budget then Id go for a high powered budget amp rather then go for a low powered budget amp. If you had money to burn then you can get a low powered amp from a high class manufacturer and you know its still going to be good. Are you using any amps to drive the rears? If not then Id suggest a 4 channel amp to do the fronts and rears and a separate amp for the sub. If you are on a budget then you can get one amp to do the lot. let me know what youd prefer and Ill look at some options for you mate! Nice install there! No, I'm not driving the rears (they are just fed from the H/U and are used as a little bit of back-fill, but I've got the fader at 13/15 to the front). I prefer my music to come at me from the front as it does at home. I don't want the amp(s) on show, so not bothered with looks or symmetry. The e2150 I have at the moment is in the oem sub space behind the drivers seat and I'd like to retain that position. That's why I thought one four-channel amp was best as it can sit where the 2150 does at the moment and drive the fronts from channels 1 and 2 and a sub from 3 and 4 (as I said the rears are hardly there anyway) and I can sell on the 2150 to get a bit back? Does that sound like a balanced argument? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunset350z Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Go for it, the JL audios are capable amps. Is there a higher model 4 channel amp you could possibly go for? That would make a bigger improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundus Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Ok Im on board with the no show approach - a stealth install is just as good if your not into the show side of it. But one thing I would strongly urge you to do is not ignore your rear speakers. You will get a much better sound from a surround system that has been set up properly then you will from just utilising the fronts. Especially once you get an uprated sub in the boot and have it amped you will really want those rears coming into play. Are the rear speakers still OEM or did you change those too mate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundus Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 I just did a really quick search and found this ex demo amp for sale going cheap. I didnt even look at the spec too much but just wanted to show you a 5 channel amp at a good price. Some more searching will find you exactly what you want. http://caraudiosecurity.com/shop/product/products_id/7123.html With an Amp like this you can run front, rear and your sub all from the same stealthily located amp. Please dont ignore your rear speakers - you wont regret bringing them into your system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunset350z Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 If you're using a DVD player to watch films etc, then the rears are important for the surround sound. I have an Alpine 5.1 digital surround sound amp which powers the 4 speakers and a center channel speaker and a dedicated amp for the sub. Ok, its not installed yet but i did have it in my Civic type R and wow it sounded awesome. If you are just using the head unit for music then the rears aint important as long as you have the sound stage set up well in the front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundus Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 If you're using a DVD player to watch films etc, then the rears are important for the surround sound. I have an Alpine 5.1 digital surround sound amp which powers the 4 speakers and a center channel speaker and a dedicated amp for the sub. Ok, its not installed yet but i did have it in my Civic type R and wow it sounded awesome. If you are just using the head unit for music then the rears aint important as long as you have the sound stage set up well in the front. Dont you find that with just using the fronts though it feels like the music is hitting you in the face rather then engulfing you? If the car didnt have any rears then fair enough no need to worry but the rears are there and ready to be used so it just seems a waste to me to have them turned down. Obviously its my personal opinion and you guys may find it perfectly ok with just the fronts but Ive always though that if youve got them then why not use them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbaggie Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share Posted July 7, 2009 Ok Im on board with the no show approach - a stealth install is just as good if your not into the show side of it. But one thing I would strongly urge you to do is not ignore your rear speakers. You will get a much better sound from a surround system that has been set up properly then you will from just utilising the fronts. Especially once you get an uprated sub in the boot and have it amped you will really want those rears coming into play. Are the rear speakers still OEM or did you change those too mate? Now that looks like an answer! The rears were changed as well, but are not components like the front (just rainbow coaxials). I can't remember the model numbers of the speakers, but they were around £220 for the front and £120 for the rear so they should be half decent I would have thought. I actually think the e4300 is now discontinued and I've only found them second hand on ebay at 70-100 quid so that might not be best option anyway. I didn't really want to go all the way putting a new feed from the battery for a second amp (which I assume I would have to do with a second amp as the wiring may not be big enough otherwise) and I'd have to build some kind of rack to take two behind the seat wouldn't I? So it looks as if a five channel amp may be the way to go. Cheers for your help there Bundus. This amp still only puts out 150W to the sub which was criticised before - would that matter? Now, which sub would work best......................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundus Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Yeah I literally dug out the first 5 channel I found - if it were me Id try and find one a little more powerful and spend a few more quid but Infinity is a reputable brand so if you are strapped for cash then its a great option. I have 3 amps in mine all running off on cable to the battery. You just get a splitter connector. Run one thick 4 gauge cable from the battery to the splitter box then run 2 or 3 smaller cables out of the splitter box to the amps. Nice and easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbaggie Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share Posted July 7, 2009 The H/U I have does play DVDs (haven't watched many), so it would make sense to amp the rears as well (although it wouldn't be in proper 5.1). I'll have a look for five channel amps, but I do like the price of that one Thanks for all your help you guys - you've helped a baffled old bloke out quite well there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundus Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Quads Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 If you're using a DVD player to watch films etc, then the rears are important for the surround sound. I have an Alpine 5.1 digital surround sound amp which powers the 4 speakers and a center channel speaker and a dedicated amp for the sub. Ok, its not installed yet but i did have it in my Civic type R and wow it sounded awesome. If you are just using the head unit for music then the rears aint important as long as you have the sound stage set up well in the front. Dont you find that with just using the fronts though it feels like the music is hitting you in the face rather then engulfing you? If the car didnt have any rears then fair enough no need to worry but the rears are there and ready to be used so it just seems a waste to me to have them turned down. Obviously its my personal opinion and you guys may find it perfectly ok with just the fronts but Ive always though that if youve got them then why not use them! A properly setup system that is just using the fronts will fill the car, specially one the size of the 350z which has a tiny amount of cabin space. If you spend the money on getting a better front amp & speakers than you were going to spend on the rears IMO you will get a better sounding system overall. In my old saxo the amount of people who would not believe I had a 1 set of front components and 1 sub was silly - they were top of the range JL 3-ways with proper ampage but went to prove the point. Quality over Quantity If you have a fairly cheap system them it may well be that the rears give you some fill but as you spend more money on better equiptment the rears will loose value Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundus Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 If you're using a DVD player to watch films etc, then the rears are important for the surround sound. I have an Alpine 5.1 digital surround sound amp which powers the 4 speakers and a center channel speaker and a dedicated amp for the sub. Ok, its not installed yet but i did have it in my Civic type R and wow it sounded awesome. If you are just using the head unit for music then the rears aint important as long as you have the sound stage set up well in the front. Dont you find that with just using the fronts though it feels like the music is hitting you in the face rather then engulfing you? If the car didnt have any rears then fair enough no need to worry but the rears are there and ready to be used so it just seems a waste to me to have them turned down. Obviously its my personal opinion and you guys may find it perfectly ok with just the fronts but Ive always though that if youve got them then why not use them! A properly setup system that is just using the fronts will fill the car, specially one the size of the 350z which has a tiny amount of cabin space. If you spend the money on getting a better front amp & speakers than you were going to spend on the rears IMO you will get a better sounding system overall. In my old saxo the amount of people who would not believe I had a 1 set of front components and 1 sub was silly - they were top of the range JL 3-ways with proper ampage but went to prove the point. Quality over Quantity If you have a fairly cheap system them it may well be that the rears give you some fill but as you spend more money on better equiptment the rears will loose value But that theory seems to be based on comparing a high quality system running just the fronts to a cheap system running all the speakers. In that scenario yes the fronts would win. But if you took the high quality system you had that was running just the fronts and added in equally high quality amped rear speakers there would definietly be an improvement. Maybe not a huge improvement in sound quality but certainly in volume and cabin fill. I can certainly see that the 350 may not require the rears as its a much smaller car then the ones Ive done most of my audio work on - but in Lincolns case he already has the rear speakers upgraded and he doesnt want to spend a lot of money so I thought the 5 channel would be the best bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Quads Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 But if you took the high quality system you had that was running just the fronts and added in equally high quality amped rear speakers there would definietly be an improvement. Maybe not a huge improvement in sound quality but certainly in volume and cabin fill.. We'll agree to disagree as a high end front end only system will fill the cabin and you won't be able to turn it up to max so adding volume is not really possible as its so loud before you can't run it at max. How often do you go to a concert and have speakers at the back pointing forward? You don't because music is designed (when its not done in DD5.1 etc) to come from infront of you. If it starts to come from behind its all wrong IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lincolnbaggie Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share Posted July 7, 2009 If you're using a DVD player to watch films etc, then the rears are important for the surround sound. I have an Alpine 5.1 digital surround sound amp which powers the 4 speakers and a center channel speaker and a dedicated amp for the sub. Ok, its not installed yet but i did have it in my Civic type R and wow it sounded awesome. If you are just using the head unit for music then the rears aint important as long as you have the sound stage set up well in the front. Dont you find that with just using the fronts though it feels like the music is hitting you in the face rather then engulfing you? If the car didnt have any rears then fair enough no need to worry but the rears are there and ready to be used so it just seems a waste to me to have them turned down. Obviously its my personal opinion and you guys may find it perfectly ok with just the fronts but Ive always though that if youve got them then why not use them! A properly setup system that is just using the fronts will fill the car, specially one the size of the 350z which has a tiny amount of cabin space. If you spend the money on getting a better front amp & speakers than you were going to spend on the rears IMO you will get a better sounding system overall. In my old saxo the amount of people who would not believe I had a 1 set of front components and 1 sub was silly - they were top of the range JL 3-ways with proper ampage but went to prove the point. Quality over Quantity If you have a fairly cheap system them it may well be that the rears give you some fill but as you spend more money on better equiptment the rears will loose value But that theory seems to be based on comparing a high quality system running just the fronts to a cheap system running all the speakers. In that scenario yes the fronts would win. But if you took the high quality system you had that was running just the fronts and added in equally high quality amped rear speakers there would definietly be an improvement. Maybe not a huge improvement in sound quality but certainly in volume and cabin fill. I can certainly see that the 350 may not require the rears as its a much smaller car then the ones Ive done most of my audio work on - but in Lincolns case he already has the rear speakers upgraded and he doesnt want to spend a lot of money so I thought the 5 channel would be the best bet. I agree with you both here; if I was spending a lot of money on a high-end system I'd go front only plus sub with two really good amps driving them separately; However, I can't justify spending huge amounts of money on a car system (especially when the engine sounds as good as it does) so just want something that it is going to sound better than it currently does for not much more money. I think this result fills that criteria. I've spent thousands on my home hi-fi as that's where I "listen" to my music as opposed to the car where I only really want to "hear" it while I'm driving. Nice discussion guys, and thanks again all of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunset350z Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 You've already got high quality speakers, so buy a really good 5 channel amp (second hand if you have to) and see how it goes. You have the option to turn the rear speakers off so you can hear the difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bundus Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 How often do you go to a concert and have speakers at the back pointing forward? You don't because music is designed (when its not done in DD5.1 etc) to come from infront of you. If it starts to come from behind its all wrong IMO Thats a good point. Perhaps its just a personal taste thing for me then. Ive always preferred having front and rear speakers in the car just because its always sounded nicer to me. Perhaps Ive not really seen a system set up with just fronts that impressed me as much as speakers all round. Its interesting to hear different sides to the story and Im sure that both sides could be argued just as well as each other so most of it will come down to personal taste. Keep us informed on the work Lincoln and get some pics up when you make progress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helimeddaz Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 The final solution to this needs to be based on what you want from your install. I've just had all the Bose stuff taken out of my car and replaced. I wanted a totally steath install. The fronts were replaced with Hertz Hi-Enegy space components. The rears with Hi-Energy 2 ways colour matched cones to the car (Orange). The rears haves Hertz bar grills. The fronts and rear are driven by an Alpine V12 545 amp as most head units give up early on in the power game. This is mounted in the passenger glove box behind the seat with a 6 disc changer sat on top of it I had an Alpine 10" sub mounted in the original place in the Z with a custom box built in around it and moves 13 time more air than the bose did. This is driven by an Alpine 1000Watt monoblock amp, Mounted in the bulkhead where the Bose amp used to be. The Head unit is an Alpine 1din flip out mounted in the bottom of a dash double din converter and above this an Alpine Ipod draw to finish off the dash nicely. If you're going for power Dynamat everything or you'll the interior will shake itself to bits. (Really). I went for steath which limits your options and I wanted to keep my boot space (what little there is). If you want more show then the world is you toasted muffin (dont like oysters). My advice is find a great installer and talk alot about what you want before you start. Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helimeddaz Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 The final solution to this needs to be based on what you want from your install. I've just had all the Bose stuff taken out of my car and replaced. I wanted a totally steath install. The fronts were replaced with Hertz Hi-Enegy space components. The rears with Hi-Energy 2 ways colour matched cones to the car (Orange). The rears haves Hertz bar grills. The fronts and rear are driven by an Alpine V12 545 amp as most head units give up early on in the power game. This is mounted in the passenger glove box behind the seat with a 6 disc changer sat on top of it I had an Alpine 10" sub mounted in the original place in the Z with a custom box built in around it and moves 13 time more air than the bose did. This is driven by an Alpine 1000Watt monoblock amp, Mounted in the bulkhead where the Bose amp used to be. The Head unit is an Alpine 1din flip out mounted in the bottom of a dash double din converter and above this an Alpine Ipod draw to finish off the dash nicely. If you're going for power Dynamat everything or you'll the interior will shake itself to bits. (Really). I went for steath which limits your options and I wanted to keep my boot space (what little there is). If you want more show then the world is you toasted muffin (dont like oysters). My advice is find a great installer and talk alot about what you want before you start. Regards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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