Brake question

[Zedrush]

Going to uprate my front brakes to 6 pot and much bigger disks, is it okay to keep the rear braks for now and uprate the pads, or will this cause some problems if the front are much bigger and stronger? Should I change the front and rear together or can I do in stages

[Tere]

You can do it in stages. In the interim, your brake balance will be a bit off but nothing that's significant.

 

Zeckhausen did some good 350Z testing on different stock and StopTech brake combinations. Here's a link (good write-up): http://www.zeckhausen.com/Testing_Brakes.htm

 

I'm running StopTech 4-piston front (14" rotors) and 2-piston rear (13" rotors). This set-up is optimum for tracking the 350. Surprisingly there's not much difference between 6 and 4 piston on the front. These babies stop on a dime, run cool, and don't really fade much on the track (not so you'd really notice anyway).

 

By the way, I highly recommend Hawk HPS pads for street use. Great grab, good modulation, and virtually no dust!

[Zedrush]

You can do it in stages. In the interim, your brake balance will be a bit off but nothing that's significant.

 

Zeckhausen did some good 350Z testing on different stock and StopTech brake combinations. Here's a link (good write-up): http://www.zeckhausen.com/Testing_Brakes.htm

 

I'm running StopTech 4-piston front (14" rotors) and 2-piston rear (13" rotors). This set-up is optimum for tracking the 350. Surprisingly there's not much difference between 6 and 4 piston on the front. These babies stop on a dime, run cool, and don't really fade much on the track (not so you'd really notice anyway).

 

By the way, I highly recommend Hawk HPS pads for street use. Great grab, good modulation, and virtually no dust!

 

thanks Tere, so having 355 or 360mm front disks with 6 or 4 pistons at the front with the standard disks at the back 2 pistons but uprated brake pads should be okay

[bigphil]

Most of the good big brake kits (such as ours ) are specifically designed to retain the correct brake bias, the key is to ensure the same pads are used front and rear.

[Tere]

You can do it in stages. In the interim, your brake balance will be a bit off but nothing that's significant.

 

Zeckhausen did some good 350Z testing on different stock and StopTech brake combinations. Here's a link (good write-up): http://www.zeckhausen.com/Testing_Brakes.htm

 

I'm running StopTech 4-piston front (14" rotors) and 2-piston rear (13" rotors). This set-up is optimum for tracking the 350. Surprisingly there's not much difference between 6 and 4 piston on the front. These babies stop on a dime, run cool, and don't really fade much on the track (not so you'd really notice anyway).

 

By the way, I highly recommend Hawk HPS pads for street use. Great grab, good modulation, and virtually no dust!

 

thanks Tere, so having 355 or 360mm front disks with 6 or 4 pistons at the front with the standard disks at the back 2 pistons but uprated brake pads should be okay

According to the tests, a stock Z is slightly front biased. With the StopTech 4-piston front and 355mm rotors, and stock rear, it becomes a little more front biased, but nothing the ABS can't handle (still passes the J turn test on the skidpad). I wouldn't track your Z until you upgrade the brakes all around -- the stock rear rotors are tiny and will overheat quickly, shifting the bias extremely far forward. For the street though, the unbalance is workable.

 

What I like about StopTech is that they thoroughly test caliper/rotor combinations, so you get perfectly balanced brakes at all four corners. Originally, I was thinking 6-piston front and 4-piston rear, but as I got into the reasearch, I found the difference to be nil with my 4-piston front and 2-piston rear setup. What I found was the 6/4 setup was more show with no significant functionality (the master cylinder is the limitation). My setup will stop the Z 60-0mph in a little over 90 feet which is almost 20 feet shorter than stock (good pads AND tires are also keys). My setup is also better than the Z models with Brembos in balance, stopping ability, and track performance. The StopTech kit originally came with Axxis Ultimate pads which were absolutely horrible (poor modulation, noisy, and very dirty). They went bye-bye in two weeks in favor of Hawk HPS which I consider the ultimate street pad (not for track).

 

[Zedrush]

You can do it in stages. In the interim, your brake balance will be a bit off but nothing that's significant.

 

Zeckhausen did some good 350Z testing on different stock and StopTech brake combinations. Here's a link (good write-up): http://www.zeckhausen.com/Testing_Brakes.htm

 

I'm running StopTech 4-piston front (14" rotors) and 2-piston rear (13" rotors). This set-up is optimum for tracking the 350. Surprisingly there's not much difference between 6 and 4 piston on the front. These babies stop on a dime, run cool, and don't really fade much on the track (not so you'd really notice anyway).

 

By the way, I highly recommend Hawk HPS pads for street use. Great grab, good modulation, and virtually no dust!

 

thanks Tere, so having 355 or 360mm front disks with 6 or 4 pistons at the front with the standard disks at the back 2 pistons but uprated brake pads should be okay

According to the tests, a stock Z is slightly front biased. With the StopTech 4-piston front and 355mm rotors, and stock rear, it becomes a little more front biased, but nothing the ABS can't handle (still passes the J turn test on the skidpad). I wouldn't track your Z until you upgrade the brakes all around -- the stock rear rotors are tiny and will overheat quickly, shifting the bias extremely far forward. For the street though, the unbalance is workable.

 

What I like about StopTech is that they thoroughly test caliper/rotor combinations, so you get perfectly balanced brakes at all four corners. Originally, I was thinking 6-piston front and 4-piston rear, but as I got into the reasearch, I found the difference to be nil with my 4-piston front and 2-piston rear setup. What I found was the 6/4 setup was more show with no significant functionality (the master cylinder is the limitation). My setup will stop the Z 60-0mph in a little over 90 feet which is almost 20 feet shorter than stock (good pads AND tires are also keys). My setup is also better than the Z models with Brembos in balance, stopping ability, and track performance. The StopTech kit originally came with Axxis Ultimate pads which were absolutely horrible (poor modulation, noisy, and very dirty). They went bye-bye in two weeks in favor of Hawk HPS which I consider the ultimate street pad (not for track).

 

 

Wow thanks Tere, but for someone who will be doing the occasional track and street, what pads would you recommend. Also if you dont mind me asking, how much did the stop tech brake kit set you back

[Tere]

If you're specifically interested in more about StopTech here's a lot more info to chew on: http://www.stoptech.com/products/BBK/summary.shtml

 

I recommend swapping pads when you go to the track since race pads usually have higher rotor wear and other characteristics not desirable for street use. Outstanding race pads are PFC 01 front and PFC 97 rear -- the stuff of championship cars -- they are expensive, but for multiple lap road track where your brakes get a real workout, you won't come to a corner and find you have no brakes. You also need high temp brake fluid.

 

As I recall, this is the supplier I bought the StopTechs from. The gold zinc anticorrosion coating is $65 extra. I got slotted rather than cross-drilled since I had heard (not confirmed) that cross-drilled have a greater tendancy to warp at high temps (may be a myth). In the write-up, there's a little dig at too many pistons. AND I'll be darned if they're not already selling the exact same setup for the new GT-R! You'll also see what I paid for the full set. http://www.evasivemotorsports.com/merch ... 3-646-4723

[Zedrush]

thanks again Tere as usual your advice is priceless, can I ask does the thickness of the disc matter, like 32mm against 42mm will it have any better effects. Also, the Zinc coating, does it always stay that colour, or will eventually where the pad contiuously rubs against the disc turn it shiney silver just keeping the area that normally corrodes protected?

[Tere]

The gold will wear off almost immediately (during pad bed-in) in the pad contact area. The zinc coating protects the rest of the rotor area from rust (a plus if you show your car).

 

Rotor thickness as well as diameter helps with heat dissipation. The thicker rotors simply have wider dissipation vanes between the two sides so you get more air flow. As you get wider though you have a tradeoff with calipers (presuming a wider caliper as well) -- they have to get beefier or they start to flex and you lose clamping force (particularly at higher racing temps). I think around 32-35 mm on the 350 front works OK; 28-32 mm is probably a good range for the rear for most of the big brake calipers on the market (other folks may have different opinions of course). Why did I do 355x32 rather than 355x35? True, you get .5" wider air gap, BUT you also have a 2.75 pound heavier rotor (it's a tradeoff again). My rear selection is even more significant in weight savings. Probably a good guide is the widest rotors your calipers/pads will easily accommodate (you need to have a little free play). Just like with number of pistons, more is not necessarily better.

 

If you read through all the StopTech test data, you'll see why I went with the rotor/caliper combination I have (narrowest ST-40 caliper on front = least caliper deflection of any caliper on the market = highest consistent clamping force across the entire performance range). Notice too the cooling vane design on StopTech rotors (I love airfoils! = around 80% better cooling capacity than stock 350 rotors). StopTech puts some heavy duty science (and testing) into all their designs. By the way, before I bought my big brakes, I did days of research into all the big brakes on the market -- I think StopTech gives you most bang for the buck (you can spend a lot more and get a lot less). With just the StopTech research, it gives you a better idea of what to look for and questions to ask when looking at the other big brakes on the market.

[Tere]

You may also find some value in the disk and caliper info on AP Racing website, although it doesn't get heavily into the science of it all.

 

Discs: http://www.apracing.com/car/brakedisc/dataselect.asp

 

Calipers: http://www.apracing.com/car/caliper/index.htm

 

Note that for the US Grand Am Cup cars (GT road course track), the only selection is 4 piston. My philosophy is use what the pro racecars use, and it's tough to go wrong.

 

If you look at the AP calipers, you'll immediately see that they don't have the strengthening bridge that the StopTechs have until you get into the very high end racing calipers.

 

As a side note, neither Brembo nor Rotora websites offer any significant performance data. In fact, some of the tidbits (few in number) are almost laughable on the Brembo site (why they don't provide stopping distance data is a real joke).

[Zedrush]

Thanks Tere, looks like ill be getting Stop Techs, now to find out who can get them for me in the UK or delivered from the States at a decent price front and rear exact same set up as yours

[Tere]

The pads that fit the StopTech ST-40 and ST-22 calipers are common sizes for a number of Porsches and Ferraris which gives an idea about the class of brake you're getting. You've also got 6 colors to choose from, which I think is the widest color choice range available.

 

By the way, I use ATE Super Blue brake fluid which is a moderately high temp fluid. It seems to work pretty well for both street and track. It's very similar to Motul RBF 600 fluid which is a racing fluid.

 

Evasive Motorsports does ship internationally. Best bet is to call (or e-mail) them for payment and shipping details. I found them to be a good supplier and no "retail BS" -- they'll give straight, honest answers to any questions you have. You might ask if they'll swap out the Axxis Ultimate pads for Hawk HPS pads -- I'll bet they'll do it.

 

By the way, AP Racing also makes pretty good brakes -- they're made in the UK and US NASCAR uses them heavily. They would be another good choice I think. But NASCAR goes around in circles mostly. The big winning Grand Am Cup car is a BMW M3 E46 equipped with StopTechs and out brakes the 996/997 (332 / 4-piston). Check it out -- http://www.stoptech.com/proven_technolo ... cess.shtml (be sure to scroll to the very bottom to see how well they work on a 350 in Grand Am Cup -- note the comments on the Aerorotors).

[Zedrush]

Yep Im sold tere, will email them in the new year and get payment to them, thanks so much for your help once again, will ask them if they can replace the pads too

[rickya]

From my BMW forum I remember that CA Automotive supply & fit StopTech brakes

 

Useful Info

 

http://forum.bmwcarmagazine.com/viewtopic.php?t=59450&highlight=stoptech

http://www.ca-at.co.uk/home.html

[lomoto]

any of you guys swopping the Brembo's , give me first dibs on your cast off's

[Zedrush]

any of you guys swopping the Brembo's , give me first dibs on your cast off's

 

after these are installed I will be selling my brembos front and rear and discs and pads and lines, they have been on the car for 4000miles as Nissan changed them for newer ones free of charge

[Tere]

Gonna be taking the '03 to the first track day of '08 on 1/12. My oldest son is going with me so the Z is going to get a real workout running double 6-7 lap sessions. So we'll be putting around 190 race miles in one day on the Z.

 

Thought you might be interested in the new pads I'll be running. Hawk recently came out with a completely new track pad that seems like it might be one up on the older HT-14 comp (still a good race pad). Hawk pads are used heavily by SCCA racing circuit cars (in the '03 season a 350 won the GT-2 title in it's first season -- Nissan pretty much dominates SCCA).

 

The new comp is called dynamic torque control which is supposed to allow better control over initial bite. It also delivers extreme torque capability, good wear, and no fade running multiple road track laps. So I'll have Hawk DTC-70s on the front and Hawk DTC-60s on the rear which should be comparable to the old Hawk HT-14/10 set up.

 

The pads will get an extreme high speed workout since I'll be braking down from 150-160 into a 40 degree sweeper followed by a second 150-160 run down into a 110 degree fairly tight corner rapidly followed by a very tight 130 degree switchback (a very challenging corner set). I'm anticipating three 150+ course legs over the 2.8 mile course, and about every straight on the course will be 100+ -- 13 turns per lap and most over 90 degrees; two 180s.

 

Heres a link to the Hawk website for a description:

http://www.hawkperformance.com/motorspo ... ons/gt.php

and

http://www.hawkperformance.com/motorspo ... /dtc60.php