Maggz

1 hour ago, Ekona said:

He’s saying (I think) that you’re saying that people don’t break laws because they’re expected to obey them, but that assumes a level of responsibility that we’re clearly not seeing. Essentially you’re expecting people to act like adults, which is what you’ve criticised the government for doing. 

But you're missing the key component....laws have sticks, consequences, which are threatening people with punishment if they don't follow them, which is quite a bit different from advice that wearing masks is smart. 

I'm expecting that people won't break the law, but that they won't give a rat's ass about your fellow countrymen if it's just someone's advice. Which the past few months have proven.

If advice is good enough, why dont we advise people to not rape kids, or kill people or sell drugs? Because no one cares about advice, people will do whatever they please.

People are just offended when anyone suggests the average person is a irresponsible t***s. So we're now trying to twist laws and advice and trying to make them equal as both rely on people "being adults" whatever that means

1 hour ago, Shunter8 said:

But the police don’t even have the time or resources to respond and chase down actual criminals committing more serious crimes. So do you really expect them to send officers out to every call of someone not wearing a mask?

 

Don't get me wrong I’m all for and happy to wear masks in public as it’s not for my benefit but to potentially save someone more vulnerable catching anything I may transmit. But yea I’d say you’re a little off the mark if you expect them to have the police time and resources to respond to the probably millions of calls they’d get because lots of careless or ignorant people won’t wear a mask even if it is illegal. 
 

I’ve witnessed and reported multiple crimes being committed out in public, mostly on the road with video evidence some times and the police couldn’t give 2 hoots as there’s still not enough to get CPS to have faith in a conviction so not wearing a mask being illegal will be absolutely pointless.

I'm not expecting police to be there or do anything. What I'm saying is that legislating something is enough to make 80% of people fall in line. I don't need to see police to know not to steal. I know that if I do steal, there's a chance I'll get in trouble, just as for smoking indoors. Currently there is nothing which will give people the same chance of getting in trouble and detract most from doing it. Which is a lot better then what we have today. 

It's not hurting anyone, just saving so I'm confused why anyone would think it's not a good idea or that having nothing (as-is) is better. 

4 minutes ago, ilogikal1 said:

And you’re back to treating people like adults. Which Boris has been criticised for already on this thread, so that doesn't float.

What? 

40 minutes ago, Ekona said:

So what about those who cannot medically wear a mask? And children in school? And how do you police the 2m rule? Punishment for non-compliance? What about restaurants and pubs, and the wearing of masks?

Can you light up a cigarette in any of those places? How is that policed? How is this any different? The law is clear around smoking indoors, including what the punishment is, why isn't it about masks? And there's no policing about cigarettes, people just don't break the law.

If it's a question of convenience, then it's easy to not wear it. But if you knew you were breaking the law, and someone could call the cops, you would probably wear it.

All this drama around policing, costs, etc is just laziness. Vast majority of people just decide to not break any laws. And if a new law comes into place, you accept it, as your morals are to not break any laws. Most people don't have a list of laws they like breaking and those they don't. So people just adjust and find a way to make them work. 

16 minutes ago, ilogikal1 said:

And where does all this government support come from exactly?

You're acting like you're living in poor country. Just exercise the law and tax Amazon, Apple and Google for their profits just as everyone else pays them, and you'll all be living on benefits for the next decade. 

Anyone telling you that  there's no money is lying. 

It'sjust hard to take it from companies that help you win an election or have funded your campaign or party. This goes for all sides.

5 minutes ago, Ekona said:

So what would you suggest happens right now? You’re in charge, anything goes but you have to have balance and think long term as well. 

Ensure there's a few years of PPE purchased, make masks mandatory everywhere apart from in your own house, 2m social distancing inside and out. Anyone that can ensure the 2m rule and masks, can have their business, school, factory, etc. open, anyone who can't gets govt. support to survive this period, or support to reorganize so they can actually apply and follow the rules. 

And brace for a rough autumn, winter and spring. 

That would be a good start

1 hour ago, Ekona said:

I don’t believe you’d actually want stricter controls to that degree. Surely allowing people to make their own decisions (within reason) and having sensible punishments for non-compliance is better than stopping the whole country again? Or would you be in favour of more and harsher lock downs again?

 

Genuine question, not trying to pick a fight here. 

Anything that can cause someone's death needs to be regulated and prevented. Why should people die because some tard believes 5g is causing all the problems, covid is a scam and dead birds are the proof. That one idiot can infect tens of people. Another issue is that a lot of people are asymptomatic but still spreading, and if they don't have laws forcing them to wear masks, they won't do it as it inconveniences them. And they can still cause other people to suffer or die... because inconvenience. 

It's so disgraceful that we trust people around something that actually killed over 50.000 people and did not legislate all the measures. 

Yes I would 100% want stricter and legislated measures and not just asking people to be smart, as they clearly are not. 

This is now 2 months old but just read this article. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/07/12/health/britain-masks-intl-gbr/index.html

I mean just this part shows how smart and responsible the UK public is when you let them do the right thing:

"in late April in the UK around 25% of people wore face masks or coverings in public places. This is staggeringly low compared to 83.4% in Italy and 63.8% in Spain in the same period."

Heartbroken, disappointed, and extremely sad, and what hurts even more is people defending the absolute stupidity of not legislating, as we now know that it was wrong, and that it made us one of the worst countries in the world. But inconvenience is obviously worse...

Good old common sense

32 minutes ago, Ekona said:

People failed people. We all knew about COVID, we still know about it, and tbh no one really took any steps to help themselves then or now. Short of locking us in at gunpoint, what more is there to do? Sure, we got caught short on some supplies which was bad, but I genuinely don’t think locking down earlier would’ve helped and opening up when he did was probably the right call. Unfortunately idiots who don’t get it have caused the minor spikes we’ve seen of late. That’s not something you can blame on any government. 

Your memory is very short I assume as Italy was already on 10k dead when most people in the UK were still joking around that it's just like the flu, and  no measures were even being discussed. You also obviously also forgot that there were 5 cobra meetings on covid and he didn't attend a single one. It was clear in Feb already how serious this was due to the Italian situation and it took Boris a full month to do something about it. So yes, it's absolutely his and his government's fault. The whole thing was an absolute joke. 

1 hour ago, ilogikal1 said:

Quite right, how dare anyone treat a nation like adults?! he should definitely know better than to do that...

Adult means you're above 18 years old, has nothing to do with intelligence, education, or common sense, and us having the worst infection and death rates in Europe literally proves that you can rely on the general public to do the right thing on their own

49 minutes ago, Ekona said:

I didn’t say he was doing well. I said he was doing fine. Not perfect, but he could be worse.  There’s always plenty to pick holes in, however as an overall view I don’t think it’s as bad as you make out. He did lockdown when people wanted it, and released it when people wanted it: In that respect, we’ve only to blame ourselves really. 
 

I couldn’t give a rat’s ass about the whole Cummings thing either. That was political point scoring at its worst. 

Why should he do what "the people" want during a pandemic. He needs to do what the science demands. **** the people. What does my nan know about covid? Or me and you for that matter? He needed to save lives and he failed 50k people and all their families as he was a few weeks late with literally every measure

16 minutes ago, Ekona said:

The last Conservative leader, for a start  I struggle to see anything that he’s done that’s been a life-changing, step-down-now clusterf*ck, which is a decent start. He showed solid leadership early on during Covid, and the daily briefings were an excellent idea, but obviously there’s been a few holes in The Plan that we can now see. So yeah, I’d say he’s doing fine, as opposed to dreadful or spectacular. 
 

Same goes for Kier Starmer, he’s also doing fine. 

https://www.newstatesman.com/covid19/2020/07/how-uk-failed-covid-19-international-view-0

Last to impose lockdown rules, sending sick people to care homes then blaming care homes for the death and infection rates, asking people to do the right thing instead of legislating it, failing the whole NHS with not providing enough PPE, hell he even toured and shook hands with covid patients.

I mean the only thing he didn't (yet) do is lick hospital floors.

He also did great defending Dom when he broke lockdown rules (twice apparently), just as well as doing great giving guidance that a lot of people didn't understand.

The UK was consistently in the top 5 worse countries in the world when it comes to infection rates and death rates during the first wave.

He's doing so well, that he's become the second biggest meme generator next to Trump. He's a true national treasure.

And the one thing you think he's done better than May is forcing a hard brexit where she wanted some sort of an agreement to protect the UK economy. I guess the amazing trade deal with the US is his way of protecting the economy, we just need to rip out Huawei from our networks first at the cost of £2bn for the telecom providers and not have 5g until Americans or Cisco figure out how to do it.

But we're a rich country that can spend £2bn on something ridiculous that Trump wants and not invest it into NHS, infrastructure, social housing, schools or anything else.  

2 minutes ago, The G Man said:

Yes, I agree with that.  I’m trying to gauge the general feeling amongst those that broadly supported this nonsense.

So what, now you expect them to be rational all of a sudden? 

14 minutes ago, Ekona said:

Nothing has changed because of Covid19. Ironically it’s probably done us a favour, as we’re now used to a crashed economy and proper leaving the EU post-transition won’t make a lot of difference now. 
 

Independence for other countries is as far away as it’s ever been, in my eyes. There’s no money to do anything, and ultimately no one wants to make themselves poorer when they’re already skint. 
 

Boris has done fine, not outstanding but I’m not sure anyone else would’ve done much better. They’d simply have made different mistakes. I do like Kier Starmer though, supports publicly the sensible decisions rather than just mock because he’s on the opposite side of the commons. 

In what way is Boris doing fine? Compared to who? 

30 minutes ago, The G Man said:

Holy thread revival 

 

whats the thoughts now that we've left, good bad indifferent?  Anyone still entrenched in their support/opposition, is it a good thing, given what is understood now, is Irish unification and Scottish independence inevitable?  

 

Will Covid make the difference, will Covid produce the excuse,  will Covid give cover, will Covid be in play?

 

Will @Jetpilot come back and vociferously defend the position?  Will anyone explain the “extra” freedoms, will we ever be the same?  

 

Will IDS read anything, will Priti Patel order the Navy to sink refugee boats, without the MOD approval?

 

Do we believe that Boris Johnson is the leader he claimed to be?  Do we believe he has done a good job?

 

Was it right to open the pubs before schools, was it right that the furlough scheme is working?

 

Do we think that business premises should get government support as they are now, undoubtedly under pressure from those that work from home?

 

Can the people of Kent cope with vast lorry parks?  Can the cope with independence before sovereign nations?

 

just asking 

We've not left yet. Only on paper but in reality nothing has changed yet and nothing will, at least until end of December. We should probably revisit this thread again in 2021 when we can actually have a discussion around customs as they are, prices, traffic, and whatever else.

All that's happened so far is Covid and politicians trying to get cheap points with "tough stance" on negotiations, that's about it.

It's what people want. Parliament and the govt. is a reflection of the population, whether we like it or not. So, best to strap in and try and enjoy the ride

35 minutes ago, Adrian@TORQEN said:

You're actually reading that website? 

 

Wtf, websites like this exist? And people actually read them and take them seriously? 

What the hell happened to people in this country? Since when did we all become Texans, screaming about Russia, communism and Marxism? 

Talk about brainwashing lol

Trump is a TV reality star which was hot in the 80s as a builder (not really but ok). People were tired of politicians, and elected "the hottest" businessman, ignoring several bankruptcies, unpaid workers, dodgy deals for land, etc. I keep joking that Kardashians are next, the kid billionaire, I bet she knows how to make America billions. It's a middle finger to the establishment. In the UK we're cheering for the establishment whilst watching them destroying public services and selling it to private companies while we have the biggest numbers of food banks, and poor people in a few decades, and doubled the countries debts during the period... crappy book balancing if you ask me. 

I'm no Corbyn fan and I'm not saying who to vote for, I'm saying who brought us here. Big difference

23 minutes ago, Ekona said:

Royals may be a formality these days, but the fact they’re still involved at all needs changing. I don’t see anything wrong with looking at how the intricacies of court/monarchy/parliament is currently and looking for changes for clarity going forward. How can that be a bad thing?

Because the motivation is to reduce the powers of parliament, and courts, and increase the power the government has. Johnson wants to make sure that next time he lies to the queen, the parliament, and the population, abuses his power and tries to force through, whatever he's trying to force through, that no one will be able to stop him. 

That's how it can be a bad thing. It's a power grab, and not a review of how we can all live happier and fairer. 

4 minutes ago, Ekona said:

Technically what Boris did was right, but a court judged it differently

How can it be right, when all 11 judges ruled differently? So what you're saying is that a politician knows better, than all 11 judges who devoted their life to their profession? 

This makes absolutely zero sense to me

6 minutes ago, Ekona said:

which then put the queen in a sticky situation as ultimately she said it was okay

Judges didn't put the queen in a sticky situation, Johnson lied to her and the nation and probably apologized to her as well. 

7 minutes ago, Ekona said:

A clear definition would mean that there’s no more fudging or opposition parties voting against stuff or dragging decisions through the courts just to make a point, whether they’re right or wrong

Royals are only involved as a formality, we have a parliamentary democracy, and not a monarchy. You maybe don't like that fact, but it's still fact. What Johnson did, was taken advantage of a procedural formality and used it to try and force his hard brexit threat as a negotiating position with the EU (which is moronic anyway), and prevent the parliament having a say. He literally used her name, status and position for his failed strategy, and made a fool of himself. And the one thing the courts are always....is right. That's why we have them, to tell the retarded plebs like us, what right is and what wrong is. 

12 minutes ago, Ekona said:

tricky state vs government vs court questions with the whole Brexit thing, questions that no one ever thought would need to be asked

Nothing tricky about it, just a government who's trying to bend laws and procedures to their benefit, and then telling people their own courts and parliament are against them. I mean if this wasn't the UK, and this would happen in a younger democracy, or a dodgier democracy like Turkey, the world would report that they're preparing a coup. 

What did they say or do to convince you that the only layer of our system who can interpret and decide on what's wrong and not, is your enemy? 

52 minutes ago, coldel said:

I think that leaders, not only here but in many other 'democracies'  are acting more and more on their own powers than going with a cabinet consensus and still able to stay in role - Boris is a dangerous individual in that respect, someone that is for example openly racist and able to still hold the highest office shows that.

 

And yes, there have been politicans that people liked, they might not necessarily been on the front benches but there are.  

In Boris's case you're right. If nothing else, his rhetoric is so bad that he's normalising open racism and bigotry, so if for no other reason,  he should be prevented the PM job just because of that. 

I'm trying to be objective and look at the wider picture, but in his case, ... Yeah, we probably shouldn't do that 

31 minutes ago, Adrian@TORQEN said:

Did you actually read the Conservative manifesto? 

 

Here's the link from their website: https://assets-global.website-files.com/5da42e2cae7ebd3f8bde353c/5dda924905da587992a064ba_Conservative 2019 Manifesto.pdf

 

Check page 48:

 

 

"We will ensure that judicial review is available to protect the rights of the individuals against an overbearing state, while ensuring that it is not abused to conduct politics by another means or to create needless delays."

 

Does this mean Boris Johnson's decisions could not be ruled illegal, the only person with this status in UK, or am I reading it wrong? Forget 2000 years of legal precedent, the human rights laws, any equality considerations or any new law made by MPs? How about the separations of powers? As I read it, the ancient rights of royal prerogative could/would be used to overrule the parliament, so that the government and Prime Minister could act illegally, without any chance of stopping it.

 

Remember when he tried to close Parliament for 5 weeks at a time of crisis, being ruled illegal? Or when May wanted to trigger Article 50 without parliamentary consent?

 

Not a law specialist, but I'd love to hear what the specialists are saying about this paragraph with regards to the judicial reviews.

 

Anything but Corbyn you say? 

 

The fact that Johnson prorogued the parliament in crunch time was enough for me. And seeing that they're publicly promising a look at the "broader aspects of our constitution" and the fact the Tories will be updating the Human rights act scares the bejesus out of me. 

I also don't get this concept of needing to like the party leader to vote for a party. Votes should be based on policy and track record of the party, not charisma and how well people speak or look. I mean, cmon, when was the last time anyone really liked a politician?

3 hours ago, Ekona said:

Didn’t even know it had been sold tbh!

I was sure you said it selling off NHS wouldn't happen, because it's "unelectable" and people wouldn't stand for it...

I guess now you see how that can happen, by selling off small pieces, bit by bit, and hoping no one notices, a bit like you didn't notice/know

18 minutes ago, coldel said:

Or when you realise you are dealing with someone who literally has no intention of considering anything anyone says that doesn't comply with your point of view, so making debate moot. You leap to so many incorrect personal assumptions that it has kind of made the point of debate tiresome and I don't have the energy to keep pointing them out. 

 

You are not right, neither am I, we both simply have a point of view. However You think the point of the debate is to be right and to convince me I am wrong whilst I am simply citing my reasons for not voting for Corbyn. You cannot discern the difference. Therefore I have ceased bothering to debate it with you. This is clearly illustrated in your 'haha I have won' comment above. 

Are you sure you're talking with the right person? The above makes no sense to me.

Privatisation of public services being bad for poor people is fact with quite a few really well documented examples. Those are not opinions, mine or yours, those are facts. And you saying no one is right, let's please stop talking about it now, is just silly and childish. These are serious topics impacting every single person living here.

Where have I mentioned Corbyn or why do you think I'm trying to convince you who to vote for? 

I also don't need you to agree with me, or to believe me...but it would be great if you read a few articles, studies and economic impacts on privatisation of public services which were not made by a political party.

Also, you thinking that your perception of how good your personal train line is, actually equals facts on why privatisation is good or bad, is concerning if not scary. But I guess you were alive in the 80s which makes you a privatisation SME 

Just now, coldel said:

...and there you go, honestly, you need to go back, read it, and if you cannot see it, seek professional help.  Although you might not find the right people who will just agree with you and massage that over inflated and confused ego. 

Attack is the best form of defence when your arguments run dry