MeisterR

21 hours ago, Sargara said:

 

Your video on facebook of the prize draw was a nice way of doing the reveal 

Thanks, it was as unbiased as I can get it.
After all, anyone who donated already done good.

Winning the coilovers is icing on the cake...  

Jerrick

Thank you for everyone's support.

The result have been great and we raised $2,457 at the time of drawing.
About $1,500 from USA, and the remaining $950 or so from UK / Europe.
We received donation from Ireland, Portugal, Netherland, Germany, etc. 

Congratulation to Mr. Philip Raymond from Dorset (UK) for winning the price draw.

The live drawing can be view on the MeisterR Facebook page.

Jerrick

Last day everyone.
We have collected over $2,100 so quite a sum.

I will be doing a Facebook live to pick out the winners this Saturday at 6:00pm UK time.

Jerrick

Just to say we are ending the fund raiser this week and a winner will be picked for a free set of MeisterR coilovers.

So far we have raise over $1,845 from 136 donator. 
I thank you for everyone generosity, and hope this will help those in need to begin their rebuilding process from Hurricane Harvey as well as Hurricane Irma.

Jerrick

We have achieved $1500 from over 100 donators in 12 days.

While this fund raiser was setup to help my local community in Houston, many unfortunate have also been affected by Hurricane Irma in the Florida region.

The Salvation Army are already providing aid the Florida region, and have deploy their mobile kitchen from as far north as New Jersey to provide additional aid to Florida.

I just want to say thank you to the many donators, and I hope to raise additional fund to hit our goals in 10 more days.

We will select an random winner on the 22nd of September to receive a free set of MeisterR coilovers.

Jerrick

Don't worry, we will work out the mechanic on the 22nd.

Just an update.

We have achieved over $600 in just two days, so thank you very much for any donation.

Please keep sharing, and lets beat the $5000 goal.

Jerrick

The team at MeisterR offer their deepest condolences to all people affected by Hurricane Harvey. 
With many people killed and more than 200,000 people left homeless, the Salvation Army are doing all they can to support victims of flooding caused by America’s heaviest rainfall on record.

Right now, Salvation Army staff and volunteers are working 24/7 to help communities that have been torn apart by the storm.
However, they desperately need funds to help them offer the best support that they can to the hundreds of thousands of people affected.

The motoring community is a tight-knit one, and we pride ourselves in helping others in their time of need. 
MeisterR have created a fundraising page to support the Salvation Army. 
Please  donate what you can: $5, $10, or $50 can help save lives.

Donate Here: https://www.gofundme.com/meisterR

We will give away a free set of MeisterR ZetaCRD / ZetaCRD+ coilovers to a random donator on September 22, 2017.
So share the news, donate and support, plus a chance for a free set of coilovers, WIN WIN.

Jerrick 

Nope, it isn't about how much energy transfer to the wheel, but what the wheel see in terms of force and how much weight is acting on top of it.

Think of it this way, with a true coilovers setup, the front ratio is about 0.6:1 and the rear is about 1:1 (rough number).

So with a 11/5.5 setup, the wheel will see 6.6 front and 5.5 rear.

As you say, because the front is holding up more weight, that is why the 5.5 rear is actually stiffer than the front.

Calculating the numbers are easy, interpreting it and then using them to build suspension is the more difficult part.
I have seen plenty of people calculating numbers, then come up with something that can only be classified as "vehicle dynamically worthless".

I haven't had any experience with MCS, so I cannot comment.

Jerrick

1 hour ago, 350Butcher said:

That's what makes it all so difficult to decide spring rates, every cars different, suspension pivot points and spring location change it all and every driver likes a different handling car!

 

I'm assuming what the wheel sees at 11/5.5 is fairly equal to slightly front biased?  

It isn't too bad, you just got to look at the wheel frequency... which is why it is important.

As that already include the suspension motion ratio (the leverage between the suspension and the wheel)

So one car might use 6kg/mm, the other car may use 14kg/mm.

However, if both car provide 1.8Hz wheel frequency, then you know both are going to roughly do the same thing, even though one car is using more than double the springs rate.

Actually, according to my calculation it is rear biased.

So that mean on throttle, the rear will want to come around more.

Not a huge problem, and the wheel frequency don't look out of this world (it is a little stiff in the rear).

But I won't look at it and go that it is a death trap in the making.

Jerrick

To calculate the bounce frequency (wheel frequency) is calculated using  sprung corner weight, springs rate, motion ratio.

It gives you a level playing round to evaluate what the wheel is seeing.

Because a 10kg/mm front springs on a 350Z is "lighter" than a 7kg/mm springs on the front of an EVO.

But what the wheels see is the important part.

The 11/5.5 seems to be a lot more sensible.

Jerrick

1 hour ago, GodISmE said:

Be careful with that Martin. Stance also recommended 14/9 to me (Swift springs on their Supersport coilovers). It was ok until I started to really push the car on tracks and drive at the limit.  I found the car extremely loose, especially at corner entry which resulted in a few near spins at a high speed. If it wasn't for my sim experience and knowing how to save it at the last minute, I would probably end up in a wall.

Only now with shocks set up to full hard (front) and almost full soft (rear), wider tires at the back (275/35/18 vs 255 at the front) and a removed rear sway bar have I found a relatively good balance. But this is addressing the symptom instead of the root cause. That's why I want to get the balance right with the springs now and put the rear sway bar back on to get some balance setting options. I've already ordered 6kg srpings and I'll start with 14/6. Michael Gardner uses this combo and he seems to be doing quite well

 

 

That 14/9 setup is doing exactly like what my dynamic model say it would then.

A 14/9 setup with the OEM rear in board springs actually would work very nicely.

But to offer a 14/9 on a true coilovers setup honestly will require the engineer to go back to school.

Like I said, 14/6 will work but a little tail happy.

If I was to suggest, a 14/4.5 actually will make a good front biased setup that would be a good fast road & track setup.

That is of course assuming the damping deal with this springs rate well and will not over critical dampen the springs.

Jerrick

Assuming we are talking about true coilovers rear, those rate is a little scary.

18kg/mm in the front is hard, but bearable... around the right figure for Semi-Slick.

14kg/mm in the front is on the harder end of a fast road car (slightly over).

The front rate are fine, as the 350Z suspension design mean the front isn't very sensitive to springs rate change.

The rear in true coilovers design on the other hand is VERY sensitive to springs rate change.

9kg/mm:  Very hard... I wouldn't use that on a road car at all.

6kg/mm:  Still very hard, should work with Semi slick but I would advice to be very careful on the road.

If I were to make a setup, it would be 18/6 and this will be for a very track focused car that I wouldn't really want to see on the road.

14/6 will also work, but it will be a little more tail happy.

I am going to highly advice AGAINST using a 9kg/mm rear springs in a "true coilovers" design.

To make a 9kg/mm rear springs rate, you would need something around a 27kg/mm front springs.

And this type of springs rate (wheel frequency) are getting up to profession race driver / touring cars running on slicks.

On a road car, I always prefer the OEM rear design.

A true rear on a race car allows better utilisation of the springs rate, and so you can provide more precise control when designing the suspension.

But that really isn't needed on a road car, and the OEM suspension is actually not a bad design for what you need to with the car.

My 2p to help out.

Jerrick

A video of the final run that got us our 3rd place finish.

Took 3rd place by 0.064 seconds, it was very close racing.

Hope you guys enjoy watching the run.

Jerrick

Yea, it is not an easy event at all.

We are all very happy with the result, especially the first time around.

The quote of the day for me was from a Co-driver of another S2000 who was also using the prototype spec ZetaCRD.

He is an auto-solo veteran also, and normally drive a 911 GT3 to auto-solo event.

I spend Saturday helping them setup, and so Sunday they got a few clean run with my recommended damping setting.

He came over at the end of the day and told my teammate:

"$20,000 car, $1,000 suspension, handles better than my $100,000 GT3."

That made my day.

Jerrick

So the past weekend we attended our first National Auto-Solo event.

The 2017 Tire Rack College Station Championship Tour, and it was certainly an experience.

https://www.scca.com/articles/2005718-2017-tire-rack-college-station-championship-tour-event-recap

Our team went into the competition feeling pretty confident, until we went to the grid and check out the competition's cars.

The top runners are using the Honda S2000 Club Racer edition, that is a limited run of 699 cars designed with aero package and soft top removed to reduce weight.

Only the CR are allow to run without the soft top, as the class rules state what came on the car in factory trim must stay; and looking at their engine bay you can see how well their cars were prepared.

Most are using the PasswordJDM carbon fibre intake, and a few cars was running Moton Clubsport 2-way adjustable coilovers; that is only what you can see.

In contrasts, we have a pretty standard 2007 Honda S2000 with 90,000 miles on the clock.

The only mods were a K&N intake, Invidia exhaust, Eibach front anti-roll bar, and MeisterR ZetaCRD coilovers in our prototype race specification.

Even our ECU was standard and unmapped... so you can imagine how our confidence drop "slightly " after seeing what we were up against.

Most were using the same tyres, the new BFGoodridge Rival S... so that mean we were on even ground at least on that part.

But never mind, this is our 1st national event so it was just to see where we sit outside of the Houston region.

The STR Class we are competing in have a total of 17 drivers, many are experienced veteran at national event.

Our driver is 21 years old Landon Thompson (who is getting a lot of stick up and down the grid because of his age), but it was all good fun.

Overall, the competition was great and environment was friendly; but you know it is a competition and people are serious and there to win when you speak with a few.

So at the end of the two day race, we end up just edging out for a 3rd place trophy finish out of 17 drivers.

Considering how under prepared our car was and it’s our first national attempt, we were all very happy about the result.

So that is it from MeisterR's team and our first national event, we came home with a blue cap (trophy winner) and a big meal at the end of the day.

We will continue to improve the car to bring it to a more competitive trim, and can only hope or better result in the next event.

It was a great weekend, just want to share our excitement and our result.

Jerrick

Well, I guess I will just have to test it on a track - I have two options for softer rear springs and can test both at no extra cost: 6k and 8k. I'll start with 6k with the ARB put back on (softest setting) and I'll see how the damper reacts. If I will be losing traction at the rear during transitions and no damper adjustment will help, I'll switch to 8k. If 8k is going to be ok (in theory it should as it's pretty close to 9k and it's actually the middle of the valving range), I'll switch to 16k at the front to balance it out. It should be fine, I like a stiffer ride and apart from Nordschleife, most of the tracks I will be driving on are pretty flat.

 

Just out of curiosity, what's actually involved in revalving coilovers? Can this be done at any suspension tuning shop or does it have to be done by the manufacturer?

Due to the motion ratio of the 350Z rear suspension design, I would say 6kg/mm is about as high as I want to go.

You will just have to see, chances are that it might be okay but you just end up running the damper soft.

Re-valving is pretty simple actually, it is just a bunch of "shims" that sit onto of a piston that affect the force it generate.

But a monotube damper require a few specialist tool, and not many people have that.

And of course, you will need a damper dyno or you will have no idea what you have actually done.

Jerrick

One of the main thing to remember that springs rate don't necessary tell you if the ride will be harsh or soft.

Because the main part of the suspensions that control ride quality is the damper.

I can easily pair the OEM soft springs rate with a very harshly valved race damper, and the ride quality will be unbearable.

Springs rate are easy number to read, but most of the time they do not tell the story... or even part of it.

What that mean is i can have 2 different setup running the exact same springs rate, but will feel drastically different.

This is where knowing what to do when engineering suspension makes a world of difference.

Jerrick

They say here that it's ok to even go up by 2k without revalving and it won't have an impact on the ride quality. Does this change anything? So for 9k spring that range would have been something like 7k to 11k, no? What does it mean for me in practical terms when I hit the track with those 6k springs - that I will have no damper adjustment at the rear and it won't really make a difference whether it's 0 clicks or 16 clicks?

 

EDIT. I've just checked with their technical support - they say the valving range is 6k to 10k.

Uh... Damper dyno or it mean nothing.

Springs rate does affect ride quality, but the damper is the main thing that control it.

I can have a very soft springs, with a extremely harshly valved damper, and the ride will still be unbearable.

Everything works together, you can't just isolate a part out and go "it is fine to change that".

So lets put it this way, say you run full stiff (as you do now), and you put that 6kg/mm springs on and run the same damping adjustment.

Your rear will be over critical, and that mean it will jack itself down if you hit bumps continuously.

That mean your rear will just sink until it is resting on it's bump stop.

The result is that you will have a rear that is unpredictable, and could "snap" out on you at anytime.

If you soften the adjustment, you may just get to the point where your damper will work with the springs.

However, because of the soft damping adjustment, it won't load the tyres like it is suppose to.

What that mean is you get this "sluggish" response as your damper isn't pushing your tyres to get it to heat up and generate traction.

Safer than the wheel snapping out on you, but far from ideal on how a car on track want to utilise it's tyres.

Remember, the only thing on the car that generate traction is the tyres.

The suspension's job is to get that tyre to generate as much traction as it can.

That is why you got to look at how changes in the suspension affect the tyres, you cannot just go I want it stiffer and just throw a 16kg/mm springs on.

Or in your case, I want it softer and just throw a softer springs on.

However, given what you said, if you have no other choice.

I would say that 6kg/mm springs will be the best option because I know for a fact that a 9kg/mm springs in the rear is way too stiff.

Jerrick

From a suspension design point of view, if this is a fast road & track car, I will ALWAYS stick with the OEM inboard springs rear setup.

The reason is that there are anti-squat property build into the OEM suspension, something you want to keep.

Also, keeping springs in the OEM location mean you do not have to worry about force being send to places that it wasn't design to go.

You don't have to worry about the turret that weren't design to hold the weight of the car.

This is not an issue for race car because the turret normally are reinforced by a roll cage anyways.

So for a fast road car, stick with the OEM design. You will get better performance and less headache from it.

Here is a picture of the separate rear of the GT1 just to help illustrate.

Jerrick

Thanks for your reply. Not sure if I understand you correctly - do you mean that with 3k softer springs I will only be able to make use of a limited damper adjustment range (it's 16 clicks right now)? Which end though - they most stiffest settings?

If you imagine that each springs rate have a "Maximum" amount of damping force you can use with that springs rate.

If you go over that MAX amount, then your damper is stopping the springs from moving, and that is a bad thing.

You can go softer because you don't always run on the road at the MAX setting.

So For example, a damper is valved at a range, the softest will be the max value for a 4kg/mm springs, and the stiffest will be the max value for a 10kg/mm springs.

Say it is paired it to a 9kg/mm springs.

With a 9kg/mm springs, you can run between the 5kg/mm setting to the 9kg/mm setting.

Now you change the damper to a 6kg/mm springs.

You can only run between the 4kg/mm to the 6kg/mm setting.

What that mean is any adjustment from the 6kg/mm damping to the 10kg/mm damping is over the MAX amount, and therefore should not be used.

Another issue is that a damper function it's best at their stiffest setting, because they provide the best "control".

So say you have a 6kg/mm springs.

You can dial a damper that was valved for 10kg/mm to the force for a 6kg/mm springs.

However, it will performance completely different from a damper that was valved for 6kg/mm that is dialled to full stiff.

If you are running at full stiff, I would guess that you are probably running over the MAX amount anyways and your wheels probably are not generating the amount of grip that it could of with a properly dialled set of suspension.

Jerrick

This season I'm lowering the rear camber to -2 and changing the rear springs to 6k. Right now even with the rear ARB removed it's still too stiff. I am not sure if I need to revalve the damper if I go down by more than 2k? Need to check with Stance but I think going down (softer springs) should be ok.

-3 at the front is perfect with r888 255/35/18 so I am keeping this setting.

Ah right, it is Stance coilovers.

You won't really need a revalve, you basically are just losing the top end of the adjustment and all the response of the damping.

Because going to a softer springs rate makes that top end of the adjustment over critical damping, and it isn't something you want to use.

When we done coilovers for the 350Z, we run a 10/5 setup.

So I would say around a 12/6 or 14/6 will be around the right setup for it.

When you have a coilovers rear, the springs rate become a lot more sensitive.

There will be a huge jump from 9kg to 6kg in terms of wheel frequency.

But if the setup was flawed to begin with, it is difficult try to make something work.

I would say go for a softer springs will be the first try, after that I would say it will be more effort than it is worth.

Jerrick

MeisterR made alot of changes in 2016, and I am sure many of our members have done a lot to their car also.

We want to get some fresh update for 2017, and we want to see what members have to say about their MeisterR coilovers.

We would like some pictures (with a MeisterR sticker preferred ) for our gallery and reviews of the coilovers from members who have used them, both new and old.

It would also be easier to have everything under a single thread to aid members doing their own research.

So if you have pictures of your car on MeisterR coilovers, please post them and write a short review of what you think of them.

1. Name: (If you want to provide it)

2. Location: (Town or County)

3. Car Make / Model / Specific Info: (Trim / Packages / Other Mods)

4. MeisterR Coilovers Model: (ZetaCRD, ZetaCRD+, GT1 etc)

5. Short Review:

a. Performance on Road:

b. Performance on Track:

c. Value for Money:

d. Would you buy again:

e. Any Personal Note:

6. Pictures:

Please attach any pictures you have of your car that you want to show the world.

7. Video:

If you have any video of your car in action on YouTube / Vimeo, please attach link to video.

Thank you for everyone's help and I look froward to some pictures and reviews.

As usual, we are available if you have any questions; just drop us a PM of there are anything we can help.

MeisterR do appreciate everyone's help, and thank you for member's continue support.

Edwin / Jerrick

Looking at those rate (14/9), a true coilover system in the rear?

That would be okay if you are using an inboard springs setup.

On true coilovers, that 9kg is way way too much.

The problem is more with the damper valving.

On the track, you should be within the first few clicks of the damping adjustment if the damper were valved correctly.

The problem is, those are data that only the guy that build the suspension know (or should know).

It is a big can of worm, and really the only person that can advice is if they have the damper dyno in their hand.

Otherwise, a springs rate may work well on one damper setup, but the same springs rate will not work on another damper setup.

Everything have to work together, and the person providing the parts should have the answer.

Jerrick

I have a track day approaching so I wanted to give them a fair test.

I love the suspension, feels soooo much better, even when cranked up towards hard it's not brutal. It's still compliant but not ideal for our rotten roads.

Let us know how it goes, when is your track day?

How does the car feel on the road now that you have more time to drive with them?

Jerrick, the Motons look like titanium rather than steel? Would make sense from a motorsport / weight saving perspective and explain the price...

 

It is just the colour of the lighting, not the greatest in NEC.

The pistons of the Moton are gold colour, a normal CNC anodised aluminium piston.

There is really no need to use any ultra exotics material for piston because it does not wear, and does not weight a lot.

The surfaces should be anodised but you don't even need "hard" anodising, a medium strength coating is more than enough.

If you ask me, that adjustment system is the bit that is expensive.

There are so many precision drilled holes within that system, a thing of beauty.

Is it necessary? Well... if you are paying £10,000 for something I guess so...

I'll save a few grand and just a traditional needle & jet system and do my fine tuning on a damper dyno... much cheaper and probably more accurate.

Jerrick

Ye thats true. I cant seem to see what the lowest setting would look like on any coilvers though. And if the lowest setting will be a bit crashy.

Basically, with the dual perch design, ride height do not affect damper stroke travel.

What that mean is if the car will be crashy, it will be crashy at any ride height.

If the car is not going to be crashy, it will not be crashy at any ride height.

Which is why you want to get as long of a damper you can get away with, and that will be decided by your ride height.

Looking at the installed photo, I would say there is another 2" or so to lower from the pictures above.

So if you feel that isn't going to be low enough, then I would say the Extreme Low would be the choice for you.

Because it is better to get a suspension that is designed for it's purposes to begin with.

Jerrick