Ruddles Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Just been reading up on the 'daily depression' otherwise known as the bbc news. Have seen that the dubbed 'Big Man' has been charged for throwing the fare-dodger from a train. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-e ... e-16288101 ..and people wonder why there are no 'have-a-go-heroes' anymore Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabbitstew Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Bet the student gets off, even though he was clearly in the wrong from the witness accounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iwantone Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 This is wrong, WRONG, WRONG!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vik54 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Good! I hope he is punished appropriately for assaulting and causing physical harm to another person. This is the problem with 'have a go hero's' - they are not trained to deal properly with challenging situations and are unlikely to know how to safely restrain someone - we have to be realistic here - any intervention should be proportional to the alledged crime being commited - or are we actually advocating batteirng anyone who we don't agree with or answers us back?! The young person was not armed nor was he physically threatening yet he was physically thrown to the ground twice. As I said in the previous thread - yes he was a cheeky wee sod and his language was fowl but did the conductor stop to listen to him? No he stood over him and shouted at him - how the f*ck else was he supposed to react? How would you have reacted? The young person - who BTW is an engineering student at Herriot Watt not your stereotypical 'Hoodie' - has also been charged with some obscure part of the CJ Act - I doubt the PF will prosecute once they have the evidence of two single journey tickets being purchased checked out - the 'Big man' (6ft + and approx 18 stone against oooh I'd say about 5"8 and 9 stone) however will be up in front of court and he not the young person will cost the taxpayer at least £75k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNABASHED Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Good! I hope he is punished appropriately for assaulting and causing physical harm to another person.This is the problem with 'have a go hero's' - they are not trained to deal properly with challenging situations and are unlikely to know how to safely restrain someone - we have to be realistic here - any intervention should be proportional to the alledged crime being commited - or are we actually advocating batteirng anyone who we don't agree with or answers us back?! The young person was not armed nor was he physically threatening yet he was physically thrown to the ground twice. As I said in the previous thread - yes he was a cheeky wee sod and his language was fowl but did the conductor stop to listen to him? No he stood over him and shouted at him - how the f*ck else was he supposed to react? How would you have reacted? The young person - who BTW is an engineering student at Herriot Watt not your stereotypical 'Hoodie' - has also been charged with some obscure part of the CJ Act - I doubt the PF will prosecute once they have the evidence of two single journey tickets being purchased checked out - the 'Big man' (6ft + and approx 18 stone against oooh I'd say about 5"8 and 9 stone) however will be up in front of court and he not the young person will cost the taxpayer at least £75k. Think I have to agree with everything you just said there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy P Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 The fact is, the little scrote who was refusing to leave the train was breaking the law, so 'big man' could justifiably argue that he was performing a citizen's arrest, albeit in a slightly over-zealous fashion... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 We didn't see the whole incident, but, the way the train reacted when the big man returned after expelling the student seemed to me to clearly indicate what he did was right. If he was bullying a kid who wasn't given a chance to explain the situation I am sure the big man wouldnt have gotten a round of applause and in fact would have had some people protest against what he did. Looking at the video, and the attitude of the kid, he was in the wrong, he was clearly not trying to help himself or the situation by saying stuff like 'i can sit here all night i dont care' to the conductor who clearly wasn't trained in confrontational situations as he was failing miserably and the kid was taking advantage of that. I'm not that old, but I certainly can remember a time when kids wouldn't dare behave like that in front of people of authority. Nowadays the usual line from kids are 'dont care you cant touch me' - there are times when authority has to take a sensible line, but nowadays authority has no authority, it has been taken away and the public are left to deal with the likes of this kid who clearly was being a little sh1te otherwise why would the person recording have gone to the effort to record it and the big man losing his patience and removing him to a round of applause, doesn't sound like the actions of a bully vs an innocent kid to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyBoy Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 The fact is, the little scrote who was refusing to leave the train was breaking the law, so 'big man' could justifiably argue that he was performing a citizen's arrest, albeit in a slightly over-zealous fashion... In UK law you can only perform a citizen's arrest in order to prevent the person from causing or suffering personal injury or causing property loss or damage, or escaping before a police constable can formally arrest them. In this case the Big Man was doing none of those things, the young guy wasn't hurting anyone and he wasn't trying to escape. I'm not sure the 'little scrote' was intentionally breaking the law, and probably thought that he shouldn't have been kicked off the train due to an admin ****-up. I think the conductor actually handled it quite badly, not sure why he didn't just call the Transport Police to meet them at the next station and carry on with the journey. If he had done that i don't think anyone would have felt the need to act, but I'm sorry, chucking someone heavily onto a concrete platform (twice) because you want to get on with your journey doesn't seem that reasonable. DB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ds2000 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 All we know is, he didn't have a valid ticket, refused to buy a new one, refused to leave the train which held the train up, he was then removed from the train. Why should he get away without having a ticket and get to where he needs to for free?! Calling this assault is absolutely pathetic, the idiot tried to get back on the train and was shoved off, his decision, advocating him not being a 'typical' hoody further undermines any argument, one rule for middleclass in education and one for the poor? (difference being someone that chose to not pay the fair vs someone that might not have been able to, who's more guilty?!) When will people take responsibility for when they are in the wrong?! Pay for ticket, don't get chucked off, simples! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy P Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 chucking someone heavily onto a concrete platform (twice) because you want to get on with your journey doesn't seem that reasonable. Depends how much of a hurry you're in! Valid point that the guy could just have easily called the transport police to deal with him, but I think others have hit the nail on the head when they say that it's the general lack of respect for any form of authority that's so galling and I'd be lying if I said I didn't cheer when the large man hurled the gobby little git off the train! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 All we know is, he didn't have a valid ticket, refused to buy a new one, refused to leave the train which held the train up, he was then removed from the train. Why should he get away without having a ticket and get to where he needs to for free?! Calling this assault is absolutely pathetic, the idiot tried to get back on the train and was shoved off, his decision, advocating him not being a 'typical' hoody further undermines any argument, one rule for middleclass in education and one for the poor? (difference being someone that chose to not pay the fair vs someone that might not have been able to, who's more guilty?!) When will people take responsibility for when they are in the wrong?! Pay for ticket, don't get chucked off, simples! I used to get the train and bus to college, bought a five day travel card religiously from the station on a sunday at 5pm to start the following day so it worked monday to friday. I was sat on the bus on a friday and inspector got on and checked tickets, it was only then i noticed and he noticed my travel card out of date because when buying it they hadn't started it from the right day they started it on the sunday and it expired thursday. So the conductor was of course pulling me up in front of everyone, twas very embarrassing, I didnt make a scene, understood where he was coming from as i had an out of date ticket, didnt make a single jots bit of difference that it was their fault for not selling me the right one. I got off the bus, we had a chat, i explained what happened, I paid a ten pound fine and got on the next bus. Later that day in college the same inspector turned up, reimbursed my tenner, gave me a free one week travel card and apologised that I was sold the wrong travel card, he had checked it out against my debit card on their system and found the error. I didn't act like a cocky ****, or say stuff like 'i can sit here all day mate' etc - I respected the guys authority and that he was doing his job. Something this kid clearly wasnt doing. Like I say we didnt see the start of it, but I doubt the old conductor went in there bull in china shop and started making trouble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavis Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 we have to be realistic here - any intervention should be proportional to the alledged crime being commited What like in this case? Try telling that to this ticket inspector http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-16229921 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DannyBoy Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 we have to be realistic here - any intervention should be proportional to the alledged crime being commited What like in this case? Try telling that to this ticket inspector http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-16229921 Sorry what? This guy was sitting down being difficult, not stabbing anyone. Are you suggesting that proportionality should be judged on what someone might be about to do rather than what they are known to be doing? It's a discraceful thing to happen, but i can't see how it applies to this. DB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martinmac Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Lets turn this on its head a little and see how the reactions are then. Suppose the guy that removed the student from the train was a police officer and the student was injured in the same way. I am pretty sure there would be be outcry about police brutality. When carrying out any action like this there is a duty of care. Yes the student was out of order but the guard should have phoned ahead and let the transport police deal with it at the next station. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavis Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 we have to be realistic here - any intervention should be proportional to the alledged crime being commited What like in this case? Try telling that to this ticket inspector http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-16229921 Sorry what? This guy was sitting down being difficult, not stabbing anyone. Are you suggesting that proportionality should be judged on what someone might be about to do rather than what they are known to be doing? It's a discraceful thing to happen, but i can't see how it applies to this. DB All i know is that this country is a joke where criminals get off lightly and people who stand up to those that cause trouble get in more trouble. Makes my blood boil, the foul mouthed gobby **** got thrown off the train that he was holding up...........he was in the wrong, end of story. May be it would have been better for the big man to have got stabbed then after he had thrown the youth off the train? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexx Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 The way I see it, it was assault. Yeah, the wee scroat was being a wee scroat. But as Martin said, the tocket inspector should have walked away and got the transport police involved. Ive been on a number of trains where exactly that happened. What the situation does not justify is someone who has no vested interest in the situation, dragging the guy off the train and throwing him out the doors....twice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beavis Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 What the situation does not justify is someone who has no vested interest in the situation, dragging the guy off the train and throwing him out the doors....twice. The youth should have accepted it the once, but he knows we live in a mamby-pamby society so put himself in the firing line twice. He will probably get paid for his trouble's as well! Lets hope that the train company take some responsibility as well for letting this happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vik54 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Lets turn this on its head a little and see how the reactions are then. Suppose the guy that removed the student from the train was a police officer and the student was injured in the same way. I am pretty sure there would be be outcry about police brutality. When carrying out any action like this there is a duty of care. Yes the student was out of order but the guard should have phoned ahead and let the transport police deal with it at the next station. Police officer would not have removed him in that fashion - they are professionals trained to restrain safely. Point I was trying to make above and in previous thread is that that man had absolutely no right to lay hands on that young person. Dave why not look at it like this - the conductor held up the train by not dealing effectively with the situation from the outset? If an adult male in a suit had sat there and explained he had been given two identical single journey tickets the conductor would not have stood over him simply shouting " Off! Off!" - he would have calmly escorted him onto the platform and handed him over to someone who could deal with the train company's mistake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vik54 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 All we know is, he didn't have a valid ticket, refused to buy a new one, refused to leave the train which held the train up, he was then removed from the train. Why should he get away without having a ticket and get to where he needs to for free?! Calling this assault is absolutely pathetic, the idiot tried to get back on the train and was shoved off his belongings were still on the train including medication!his decision, advocating him not being a 'typical' hoody further undermines any argument, one rule for middleclass in education and one for the poor? No absolutely categorically not what I meant!!! Please read my previous comments on this - my point being that the conductor would not have dealt with him in the manner he did if he had looked a bit more respectable or been an 'adult' (difference being someone that chose to not pay the fair vs someone that might not have been able to, who's more guilty?!) When will people take responsibility for when they are in the wrong?! Pay for ticket, don't get chucked off, simples! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy P Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Dave why not look at it like this - the conductor held up the train by not dealing effectively with the situation from the outset? I think this is missing the point somewhat. Although the conductor could probably have dealt with it better, the kid was being an obnoxious little w***er and being manhandled off the train in embarrassing but ultimately not exactly life-threatening fashion seems like a simple life lesson to me: act like a ****; expect pain... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vik54 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I seeee.... so someone gives you a mouthful you have a right to inflict pain or physically damage them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy P Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 It very much depends on the mouthful, but yes, there comes a point where the only response to what someone is saying to you is a slap! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vik54 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Nice outlook on life you have there Jimmy You'll go far in life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmy P Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 It hasn't done me any harm thus far! Look, I'm not suggesting that people should be running about sorting all their problems with violence, but a measured level of force can be the right response to a given situation. Have to agree to disagree I guess! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
captain Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 And that's why, since the 13th century, we've had universally praised legal system where people are judged in court by their peers based on precedent, common law etc. 12 good men and true will decide the fate of "the big man" so that the ill-informed and unwashed (us) don't have to. Personally (even though I'm a bit of a right-wing bully myself) I thought the kid was harshly treated and suffered humiliation, fear and physical pain at the hands of another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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