Brexit again

[coldel]

..and I am the only one that finds the whole situation ironic - in that we called it Brexit, as in Britain, exiting, but actually NI is part of the United Kingdom, not Great Britain. Were we not representing it incorrectly all along and here we are with NI the pivot of all the discussion 

[Jetpilot]

@Maggz, i wont bother to quote you in reply, its pretty clear from your posts you will not and do not accept Brexit or the vote/voters and i have absolutely no problem with that, we are all entitled to our choice/views and guessing from your comment to Ekona with regards to dictators you have experience with that so appreciate your stand point further.

 

I am afraid to say that i also dont believe someone with such strong pro eu views you would except the next vote if it didnt still didnt go your way. You would once again get caught up in the media frenzy of dismissing the voters as racist/xenophobic/scammed and all the other stuff you mention plus funding, broken laws etc, if that referendum was truly illegal you can be dam sure it would have been nullified by the remainers.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Jetpilot

[Maggz]

22 minutes ago, Jetpilot said:

@Maggz, i wont bother to quote you in reply, its pretty clear from your posts you will not and do not accept Brexit or the vote/voters and i have absolutely no problem with that, we are all entitled to our choice/views and guessing from your comment to Ekona with regards to dictators you have experience with that so appreciate your stand point further.

 

I am afraid to say that i also dont believe someone with such strong pro eu views you would except the next vote if it didnt still didnt go your way. You would once again get caught up in the media frenzy of dismissing the voters as racist/xenophobic/scammed and all the other stuff you mention plus funding, broken laws etc, if that referendum was truly illegal you can be dam sure it would have been nullified by the remainers.

The problem is you're thinking about this very one dimensional. 

All major parties in the UK are scared of voter vengeance if they go against the referendum, as all parties are also split down the middle. And unfortunately the first goal of each political party is to stay in power and stay relevant. It's so bad that there's been talks of both Tories and Labor potentially splitting as parties (won't happen, but them merely talking about it means it's serious). 

Second thing is, parliamentarians are loaded, and won't be impacted by Brexit unless they're voted out. So their bottom line is very different than yours or mine. 

They're not reversing the referendum because they're afraid they'll become the next libdems. And not because there's no proof. There's actually a proceeding in place in a few courts regarding the annulment.

My problem is that people disregard laws because of political sides and opinions which is very dangerous for any country. Rule of law should be upheld no matter the sides and reason why it was broken. 

And the fact that you say I wouldn't accept the next vote if it lost because of my pro EU views is a bit insulting, but as you don't know me, I'll let it slide. 

I would like the parliament to do its job in the first place and not ask the plebs what they think. If it did ask, it should be an opinion not an obligation. That's for starters.

Now if it already asked the people what they wanted, and if people decided based on lies and if election laws were broken, I would want the parliament to annul and prosecute. 

But you know why they won't? Because they're afraid the leave side will say, the legality was an excuse for annulling a referendum which didn't go their way... Again, disregarding laws, and politicians doing things which doesn't blow back at them and remove them from office. 

 

I hope this makes sense, can't explain it any more simply than that 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Maggz

[Jetpilot]

3 minutes ago, Maggz said:

The problem is you're thinking about this very one dimensional.

 

So their bottom line is very different than yours or mine.

 

a bit insulting, but as you don't know me, I'll let it slide.  

 

cant explain it any more simply than that

Likewise  

 

Dude you wont get me to agree with you and vice versa, as said i have no problem with your view and i am not trying to persuade you otherwise, the problem is you believe you are right and i am wrong, its 50/50 ish across the country its utterly arrogant to think 50% of the population is/were/are wrong. 

 

 

[coldel]

There is certainly a debate to be had about the legitimacy of voting. Both the referendum and the US elections faced unprecedented interference not before seen from subversive 3rd parties. It's no longer safe to assume the vote isn't tampered with by simply putting tamper proof tape on boxes. As we saw it only takes a couple of percent swing to change a major decision...the democratic voting system is not able in the modern age to deal with the flow of misinformation from placed social media accounts for instance. 

 

All that said...the results from the last referendum have to stand. 

[Maggz]

25 minutes ago, Jetpilot said:

Likewise  

 

Dude you wont get me to agree with you and vice versa, as said i have no problem with your view and i am not trying to persuade you otherwise, the problem is you believe you are right and i am wrong, its 50/50 ish across the country its utterly arrogant to think 50% of the population is/were/are wrong. 

 

 

I'm not trying to convince you in anything, we're debating. This isn't about you, although you seem like you want it to be. I'm stating facts and trying to provide information which I believe not all know about. Not really sure what you're doing though.

 

I also never said they were wrong, I keep saying they were convinced based on false data, were lied to, and were taken advantage off in order to progress agendas which were in the interest of everyone else but not the UK. This started with Farage going to the EU as a representative, and him twisting facts about what's been going on there.

 

And I'm surprised more people who voted based on those lies aren't more vocal about it, maybe it's partially due to being ashamed they got it wrong? Dunno, maybe it's just easier to tell "let's get on with it" than accept responsibility for our actions. Time will tell.

 

Anyone who voted for fishing quotas and immigration don't need to change their mind. It was what they wanted and maybe still do. 

 

 

[Maggz]

25 minutes ago, coldel said:

There is certainly a debate to be had about the legitimacy of voting. Both the referendum and the US elections faced unprecedented interference not before seen from subversive 3rd parties. It's no longer safe to assume the vote isn't tampered with by simply putting tamper proof tape on boxes. As we saw it only takes a couple of percent swing to change a major decision...the democratic voting system is not able in the modern age to deal with the flow of misinformation from placed social media accounts for instance. 

 

All that said...the results from the last referendum have to stand. 

I agree with all, even the last part. But by UK law, referendum is NOT legally binding. It can stand, sure, but parliament shouldn't enact it, now that we know what all went down.

I'm still talking about laws not feelings or wishes

[Jay84]

If for example Italy did also vote leave, would they need to create their own currency again? Asking for a friend.

Maggz, if pigs flew and we had a 2nd vote, and it was the same result, would you be 'happy' to let it lie/accept the decision? The reason I ask is the remain people have been vocal about not liking the outcome from the beginning, before the legitimacy raised its head. When it did raise its head it was seized upon like straw being clutched. It is worth me stating I don't believe the process has been handled well, and I'm not trying to justify the leave outcome, as stated, im intrigued as to what will happen to the auto service industry for which I work in the future. 

[Jay84]

Another question (aimed at the group), if we re-voted, and remain won this time, would Europe keep us? Or would they say its too late now, wheels are in motion plates are spinning? 

[blobbish]

26 minutes ago, Maggz said:

I agree with all, even the last part. But by UK law, referendum is NOT legally binding. It can stand, sure, but parliament shouldn't enact it, now that we know what all went down.

I'm still talking about laws not feelings or wishes

Maggz. I think your missing the whole point here. It doesn't matter if it was legal or not, the referendum was only advisory.  The Government didn't have to act upon it, they could have stayed in the EU. They made the choice to accept the vote, and they would have been aware of what was real and what wasn't.

Edited November 20, 2018 by blobbish

[blobbish]

4 minutes ago, Jay84 said:

Another question (aimed at the group), if we re-voted, and remain won this time, would Europe keep us? Or would they say its too late now, wheels are in motion plates are spinning? 

 

I think that the EU have already stated that they would allow us to remain. But I don't think that legally it can be revoked. 

 

Although I have just read that the CJEU is allowing a hearing to go ahead to see if it can.

[Maggz]

39 minutes ago, Jay84 said:

If for example Italy did also vote leave, would they need to create their own currency again? Asking for a friend.

Maggz, if pigs flew and we had a 2nd vote, and it was the same result, would you be 'happy' to let it lie/accept the decision? The reason I ask is the remain people have been vocal about not liking the outcome from the beginning, before the legitimacy raised its head. When it did raise its head it was seized upon like straw being clutched. It is worth me stating I don't believe the process has been handled well, and I'm not trying to justify the leave outcome, as stated, im intrigued as to what will happen to the auto service industry for which I work in the future. 

I wouldn't be happy, but I would have accepted it. I would also reconsider my current living situation depending on how the environment around me would change. 

I work in the same industry, and what people also don't get is that WTO tariffs and rules will hurt. They will hurt badly. Imagine a 20% bump on prices for the the next decade (which is how long big trade deals take to negotiate). People don't feel anything yet, and think this is as worse as it gets. Nothing has happened yet actually.

Now imagine along the tarrifs that the pound goes down another 15 or 20 %. I wonder how much fishing quotas will matter when loads of people won't be able to afford everything taken for granted today

[Maggz]

41 minutes ago, Jay84 said:

Another question (aimed at the group), if we re-voted, and remain won this time, would Europe keep us? Or would they say its too late now, wheels are in motion plates are spinning? 

No one knows, none of this stuff has ever happened. It's as new for us as it is for the EU. 

[Maggz]

38 minutes ago, blobbish said:

Maggz. I think your missing the whole point here. It doesn't matter if it was legal or not, the referendum was only advisory.  The Government didn't have to act upon it, they could have stayed in the EU. They made the choice to accept the vote, and they would have been aware of what was real and what wasn't.

You have a strange way of agreeing with me 

My point was that if the government knows what went down, it would have been easier for them to not enact it. I'm well aware it was advisory. That's actually my biggest issue here.

[Jetpilot]

46 minutes ago, Maggz said:

I keep saying they were convinced based on false data, were lied to, and were taken advantage off

And yet as pointed out, according to polls after the "the deal", its still a near 50/50 split, so either near 50% doesnt care it was lied too, taken advantage of and given false data, they didnt believe the rhetoric and werent actually convinced of it in the first place and really did want to leave the EU regardless or they are utter morons or its a whole load of nonsense and far from factual that people voted that way because its just what you want to believe to justify the decision.

 

You just have to accept, roughly half the country (nothing to do with yours or my views), dont want to part of the EU at this very moment in time.

 

 

[coldel]

Maggz, I get you are debating a point about if a referendum was seen to be unfairly contested, the result shouldn't stand, in principle that is correct. The reality of it is that the overspends, illegal funding etc. has only just come to light - what would you suggest we do? Given that we are on the verge of signing out of Europe? If we just say re run it then we exit next year with no deal doing substantial economic damage. Would the EU let us back in? Probably, but under the same terms as before, I would think unlikely. Would the population stand for the result suddenly being made null and void and changing the decision? Absolutely not, you are looking at very likely country wide civil unrest. It is an interesting hypothetical debate, but I cannot see anything being done about it in reality. 

 

I think we have to accept the vote was to some degree rigged, it was influenced by outside parties looking to subvert democracy realising that the vote was so close that subversive actions could swing it. It happened, it wont be the last time either, but we need to accept we live in an imperfect world. The energies need to be focused on sorting all this mess out, the general election last year was an utter disaster and has resulted in the split government, inter party rowing, we are too busy arguing a toss about anything and everything whilst an army of experienced EU negotiators pick apart weak links like David Davies - its sad we have a bunch people too busy arguing amongst themselves than actually trying to sort this all out, as much as we laugh at Trump I am sure there are many people outside the UK laughing at our leadership.

[Maggz]

1 minute ago, Jetpilot said:

And yet as pointed out, according to polls after the "the deal", 

See, statements like this are part of a problem. There is no deal. It's a withdraw agreement which is sorting out less than 10% of the issues. An actual trade deal is yet to be negotiated. You not knowing the difference kind of means you don't really know what you're talking about. 

Next part.. there is no deal as it doesn't have the parliament support, so it's just an idea, an offer, a draft document, for now. 

 

4 minutes ago, Jetpilot said:

either near 50% doesnt care it was lied too, taken advantage of and given false data, they didnt believe the rhetoric and werent actually convinced of it in the first place and really did want to leave the EU regardless or they are utter morons or its a whole load of nonsense and far from factual that people voted that way because its just what you want to believe to justify the decision.

Nice spin. What you forgot is that one of the hardest thing for a person to accept is that they were wrong, and second hardest is to say they're sorry. Nothing to do with Brexit per say, but just human nature. It takes a lot of character to do so, and even more, to do so publicly.  What I'm saying is, that it's unfortunately easier to say let's get on with it, and blame the EU for our situation and this crappy draft agreement.

 

7 minutes ago, Jetpilot said:

You just have to accept, roughly half the country (nothing to do with yours or my views), dont want to part of the EU at this very moment in time.

I accepted that long ago, but I can't accept we're disregarding the laws and lies, just because that's the easiest thing to do for us and politicians.

I think we all should try and be better than that. 

 

[Jetpilot]

2 minutes ago, coldel said:

resulted in the split government, inter party rowing, we are too busy arguing a toss about anything and everything

No bad thing, Labour seem to have done pretty well from similar upsets and party politics surrounding their leader last year.

 

Sorry to cherry pick, a good political post as ever

[Maggz]

16 minutes ago, coldel said:

what would you suggest we do? 

What most other countries would probably do after it was proved... Go to the streets, remove the retards in government, demand justice, and if needed do another vote. Annulling a decision or agreement would most probably not be a problem with the EU, as they'll be worse off with Brexit as well. 

I think (and I'm well aware I may be wrong) that the culture in the UK is a bit more apathetic than in most other European countries, and that's a shame. As we're talking about changes which will impact generations to come.

Imagine this happening in France, Germany, hell even Romania, Serbia, or any other country. Pitchforks would be out after the first two revelations, and rightly so. They'd be appealed that their own politicians did something which will impact generations and destroy the result the current working generation has achieved, the last thing they'd say would be "oh well, what's done is done, let's get on with it".

Either we have way too much faith in our government, or we should care a lot more about our kids future

Edited November 20, 2018 by Maggz

[docwra]

Just a couple of points from the last page or two:

The UK has more right to veto than any other EU member. We also have our own currency, we are an Island state and we have one of the strongest economies. We already have control over EU immigration numbers and who we pay benefit to, staying in the EU is not a poison chalice by any means. 

While we were mislead by certain MP's, the correct information about everything was out there if you looked for it. 

Our co-operation with the EU is a lot of the reason we have the Japanese car factories, our financial system is so strong and we have benefitted from a lot of environmental and human right legislation too. 

Trump isnt delivering **** all, where he is seen to be achieving its off the back of Obama. If you cant see the cancer that he is then any comment you make on Brexitis immediate inval;id in my eyes. 

 

Superstu has one of the best takes on this of anyone Ive seen.

 

[coldel]

I agree the comparison to Trump is not a good one (sorry Bri!) - he has been a car crash and the fall out will unveil itself over the next few years for others to recover the country from. Yes he delivered tax cuts as promised (which benefit business and the wealthy and not seen the increase in business to cover the loss revenue), dropped out the climate change agreement, pushed back on 'obamacare' and started annulling trade deals.

 

The big problem is that he hasn't replaced the health care insurance as promised, he is encouraging anti-planet activities within his country which longer term are going to completely screw the economy, whilst the rest of the world works through the intricacies of utilising renewable energy he pumps money into pits and mines which have limited shelf life as well as ever increasing cost to produce vs the falling cost of renewables. Said he would pull out of NATO and bottled it. Of course the signature campaign effort around a Mexican wall was nothing more than a joke that got out of hand, did anyone tell him that 80% of all illegal immigrants fly in to the country? And of course he promised to bring back waterboarding for terrorist detainees, any surprise that didn't make it through the courts?! 

[Ekona]

31 minutes ago, docwra said:

While we were mislead by certain MP's, the correct information about everything was out there if you looked for it.

This. A million times this. 

 

If people cannot be bothered to look for the information, or (and this is quite likely from those that may or may not be of the kind that cannot be arsed to search for themselves) are simply too stupid to understand it, then what more can we do? We live in an age where anything and everything is available to us in terms of information, we cannot force people to read it.

[docwra]

Oh, and its ben pointed out before but Europe would be very happy for us to rip up article 50 and make like nothing happened. 

 

And as for the orange destroyer of worlds, he also crowed about resolving North Korea but hasnt mentioned it since it became clear its not resolved, he has not BUILT THAT WALL, nearly every member of his staff have been indicted, arrested, charged or had strong evidence of corruption levelled at them (drain the swamp anyone?), he has not banned or removed Muslims and his grasp of science particularly in relation to global warming is very, very scary. He is still under investigation for cllusion with Russians but still constantly shouts "crooked Hilary" and "lock her up" ......... except his daughter has just been found doing exactly the same thing. 

He has also undermined the extremely important role of the press/media for nothing other than his own gains, made it acceptable to fabricate information, insulted most of America one way or another, the UN, the EU and everyone else .......... but hes going to make a Space Corps, GO TRUMP! 

[Bullet]

Why is no-one talking about them wanting an EU army, That alone should be enough of a reason to gtfo. It feels like the build up to world war 2 all over again.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gHOA2y9BzU

 

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Bullet

[Jetpilot]

3 hours ago, docwra said:

While we were mislead by certain MP's, the correct information about everything was out there if you looked for it. 

we have benefitted from a lot of environmental and human right legislation too. 
 

As mentioned above, i think its pretty clear if not looked into at the time that it is certainly recognised now that info was misleading, yet still the vote (according to polls only) hovers around a small minority, i would be interested in your take on that, as to the voting public it doesnt seem to be that much of a deal that others are clinging too?

 

Why is it assumed that the same legislation wouldnt have been followed by whichever UK government at the time and to be in line with the EU anyway even if we werent a member state?

 

There has been a couple of mentions about the EU army Bullet, i just dont believe anyone suspects it to actually happen to pay it any homage, but i wouldnt put it past them.