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Brexit again


Jetpilot

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Corbyn talks a good talk but his behaviour around brexit has been as obstructive as any MP in parliament. Talking utter rubbish like lets have an election, Labour win, then go renegotiate and get a better withdrawal deal...the guy is either in fairyland or just happy to grab the PMship and to hell with what follows. 

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Just now, coldel said:

Corbyn talks a good talk but his behaviour around brexit has been as obstructive as any MP in parliament. Talking utter rubbish like lets have an election, Labour win, then go renegotiate and get a better withdrawal deal...the guy is either in fairyland or just happy to grab the PMship and to hell with what follows. 

Sounds like you're describing JRM or Boris :lol: 

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I think even if TMs agreement was a good one (to be frank its only the backstop that is putting a fair few MPs off otherwise we have done well) you would still see a reasonable amount of opposition to it by those in red on a point of forcing an election whilst the prime minister is down. She has already said she wont stand at the next election, Labour fear they will miss the chance to grab power if they dont force an election now hence their total disregard for our economic welfare and sole interest in forcing the no confidence vote repeatedly. 

 

At a time when the working class are seriously under threat through potential sweeping changes to manufacturing, production etc. Labour could not give one effing hoot about them. 

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1 minute ago, Adrian@TORQEN said:

Your typical Leave response will be to show similar comments by pro-remainers making equally outlandish statements. Additionally all the quotes are out of context (especially the Rabb one). But it is a fair point, both sides just made @*!# up without any clue as to how it would be, the difference is that the side that won are then obligated to follow through on those commitments which clearly isn't possible. 

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To be fair, he is right but he is also culpable. David Davies wasted 18 months of our 24 months achieving nothing in his negotiations leaving TM 6 months to step in and sort it out, by then we were already on the back foot. Boris as foreign secretary did nothing to improve relations with our global partners instead mostly making a complete cluster **** of it. Both of them are massively responsible for leaving the UK government no time or leverage to get the best deal we could. 

 

That said, the issue of Ireland has been around for 2 years since the vote, it got kicked into the long grass too many times and anyone involved in the process refused to face into it. We shouldn't have got 20 months into the process before all the MPs started getting their knickers in a twist about it and forcing unnecessary splinter groups.

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Of course they do. They have their own interests to protect, to make the whole process easy would be completely irrational. BUT they are also negotiating a business deal, as a business you negotiate the best deal you can. You use your leverage and economic advantage to drive the negotiations, the deal we got to has some concessions from the EU but more from us because that's how business works - bigger players get better deals, that's why the EU exists to leverage its size and clout when dealing with business. How anyone in their right mind thought we could as a single economy with no credible recent negotiating experience wander over to Europe and demand what we had before and more against their army of experienced trade negotiators is quite frankly mind-boggling :wacko:

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Absolutely a business would negotiate the best deal they can but purely theoretical question on that, you dont believe if a deal offered between business's was declined (which it has in this case) "they" would concede further for their own interests/business?  I suggest thats cutting off your nose to spite your face and not business in any shape or form. 

 

Bearing in mind it doesnt seem the bulk of it is not  widely accepted, its not like "we" are asking for completely different terms or benefits, 1 issue (although complicated) that seems to need further resolution which might just get it done and agreed in law. You would personal think both "business's" would be all over that :thumbs:

 

Andy above, Maggz and others have said it, the EU are setting president to try to stamp out the rot and keep their dream alive, its way beyond just business agreements, we are the scapegoats and if we leave without a deal and if we look to be surviving and getting on forging new deals under wto, others will follow sometime down the line.

 

I can see this rolling and rolling, what if Italy, Poland or anyone else wants out or Scotland want out of the UK, we are forever more going to be discussing borders.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Jetpilot said:

Absolutely a business would negotiate the best deal they can but purely theoretical question on that, you dont believe if a deal offered between business's was declined (which it has in this case) "they" would concede further for their own interests/business?  I suggest thats cutting off your nose to spite your face and not business in any shape or form. 

 

Bearing in mind it doesnt seem the bulk of it is not  widely accepted, its not like "we" are asking for completely different terms or benefits, 1 issue (although complicated) that seems to need further resolution which might just get it done and agreed in law. You would personal think both "business's" would be all over that :thumbs:

 

Andy above, Maggz and others have said it, the EU are setting president to try to stamp out the rot and keep their dream alive, its way beyond just business agreements, we are the scapegoats and if we leave without a deal and if we look to be surviving and getting on forging new deals under wto, others will follow sometime down the line.

 

I can see this rolling and rolling, what if Italy, Poland or anyone else wants out or Scotland want out of the UK, we are forever more going to be discussing borders.

 

 

Yep totally, as I said its in their interests to not demonstrate walking away is easy (additionally even if the EU did make more than best endevours to make it easier it is still a massively complicated process) they still have their own interests to look after. None of us are party to the discussions that got us to the final deal May had presented, I suspect all the flex the EU had and their own red lines have been reached - given we are only 10% of their trade its quite reasonable (especially with industries making a lot of noise about relocating to mainland Europe) that they might conclude that no deal would be better for them than giving more concessions and let it roll into that. Not cutting off ones nose at all if the no deal outcome for the EU is no worse than further concessions, both economically and politically. 

 

 

Edited by coldel
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1 minute ago, Jetpilot said:

So if we do leave with no deal and if we look to be fairing ok, do you think others would follow?

Who knows. Would Greece with their barely recovered economy be able to replicate what the UK does as the 5th largest single country economy in the world? Given that the majority of their income is tourism whereas ours are services. It's not comparing apples with apples, each country has its own challenges, if the 5th largest single country economy in the world is falling over its shoe laces leaving then how would much smaller ones fair?

 

When would you define 'fairing ok' - given deals with the WTO, disputes take years to resolve, deals take possibly up to ten years to make. When and how do you define success that might suggest to other countries to follow suit? What would the EU look like by then, they are talking about reform etc. it might be in 5 years time even if we are doing well, being in the EU might be a better place to be for many countries.

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11 minutes ago, Jetpilot said:

So if we do leave with no deal and if we look to be fairing ok, do you think others would follow?

Is brexit not so much doing best for UK to you more, your all for ****ing up the EUs day? 

 

Genuine question as reading back a lot of your points are more, yea but the EU will be worse off rather than the UK will be better off? 

 

I wonder how many leavers voted to stick it to the EU appose to creating a better UK 

Edited by StevoD
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2 minutes ago, Jetpilot said:

the EU are setting president to try

*precedent? 

 

What really pisses me off, Brexit or No Brexit, we've stopped doing anything else in this country in the last 2-3 years, no major infrastructure projects (roads, bridges, nuclear plants, railways, proper broadband etc) and just keep the circus going in Westminster, with alternating clowns daily, from different parties. 

 

We're now spending even more billions on preparations for No Deal Brexit, like the farce with the truckers attempt to test chaos on motorways if No Deal Brexit. 

 

It's a total mess, IMHO Brexit needs to be cancelled as soon as possible and let's move on and start improving this country on all aspects: Education, Health, Infrastructure, Economy and so on, while pressing EU to make the changes we want from the inside, co-operating and leading the change. 

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We have some German friends who we met via our sons friend at nursery a few years back. They were working here (damn them foreigners taking all those jobs  we won the war all by ourselves you know :lol:) and have decided to head back to Germany for a number of reasons one of those being the impending brexit. Something interesting the guy said was that the thing he feels the EU will miss most is our constant opposition to particular things. Although we generally agreed on many things with the EU we were never afraid of putting our hand up and challenging things, we actually could have led positive reform in the EU, instead we are now subject to it but without influence. 

Edited by coldel
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:yawn: my vote was never placed to f*** up the EU if thats what your asking, what a twisted view, however would i prefer the UK to prosper over the EU, of course, wouldnt you, but as above with the engine analogy i would be quite happy to stay in the Eu with some fine tuning, have a read on how Mr Junker was elected if you want a clue.

 

But i cant get on this media hysteria that the Eu hold all cards to our future, let me refer you back to George Osbourne who claimed we would be in immediate recession, employment would rise by half a million on triggering of article 50 and many other fear tactics, it hasnt, the economy has risen, employment at its lowest for years, its all just about who you want to believe, which hopefully also answers Torqens usual rhetoric about how sh*t this country is, you will still be running your successful business (yes we can all view companies house records should we desire) in years still banging on about how sh*t this country is, frankly its tiresome, boring and simply not true (as above),  however i fully agree attention is needed to policing/nhs/education and most likely when we know where we are those areas will be addressed by whatever government P.s you not heard of crossrail if you are mentioning no major infrastructure.

 

Do i care if the "Eu" fails though Stevo, absolutely not!

 

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Osbourne and other remainers were simply playing the same political game leavers were, over stating the truth because quite simply the public were just swallowing it all. There was no political gain to be had by Osbourne saying that the UK economy would continue on but with hits to the currency (which no one would understand the impact of past how many Euros they get in exchange for a Pound when heading off on holiday). 

 

Fear was played both ways, Leavers had their Project Fear around immigration, around never being able to leave the EU, around jobs, around EU control of our policies, around amount of money spent on the EU each week - it was all 'Project Fear' as well designed to rile the masses which was as much an untruth as anything the remain camp came up with.

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