The G Man Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Just found it funny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 It's hard to imagine anything funnier in politics these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 I voted last night. Have seen plenty of political gatherings over the last few weeks around the area, was out playing football at Richmond Green with my little Alfie the other morning and Zac was there with an expensive support set up (huge speakers, temporary stage built etc.) drumming up support for anti-heathrow. To be fair, makes no sense to build there instead of Gatwick but all candidates felt that. In the referendum two thirds of the constituency voted remain, that certainly counted against him. Also we do remember being quite dismayed at how nasty he turned in the Mayoral election, he did himself no favours with his behaviour in that election either. He actually is not a bad guy, he just unfortunately didn't appreciate the strength of feeling against Brexit in the area and just hung his hopes on his Heathrow stance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Silly, silly man. Everyone knows you don't stuff in politics because of principles! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 He was certainly playing a political game even though he was quoted as saying he wasn't. He just made a bad assumption around the feeling of brexit being less important than Heathrow. I actually went to a Lib Dem event the other night, Nick Clegg was there speaking with Sarah, she is actually not bad a public speaker for a relative newbie, she will most likely be eaten alive in Parliament unfortunately but Nick Clegg was a force of nature on stage, incredible speaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 No-one gives a toss about Heathrow, not really. The vast majority of sensible non-tree hugging people really don't care at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Nick Clegg is a nice guy, but that's the trouble with the LDs: They give a great talk, but when they get any real power they just get a bit lost and people suddenly remember why no-one votes for them. That said, I like Tim Farrow as a politician, and I can see them matching any of Labour's results were we to get a snap GE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Lib Dems were on a hiding to nothing in the coalition, they never really had any influence to make decisions, only to try and keep the Tories somewhat moderate. Its like anything when you are a 'deputy' you can advise but you do not make the decisions. My main concern about Heathrow was less about the noise and pollution but more about the increased vehicle traffic in the area, the M4 is a car park most days as it enters the burbs and the M25 is quite famous already for not handling the traffic in that area, the road network around the airport is shocking and the public transport services are either not up to the job or massively overpriced (Heathrow express!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggalo Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Remainers spitting their dummies out in protest. We're leaving, get over it. Alternatively, sod off and live in your precious EU and leave us racists bigots in peace. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 And whats wrong with protesting? Just because 17m people said one thing and 16m said another, it doesn't mean the 16m cannot therefore have a view on what a proper Brexit means - they all still exist, are all still pro-UK despite all the over use of the Union Jack you see on Leave propoganda, and still care about our country. We are leaving we get that, but the manner in which we leave is open to ALL to debate we are not living in some communist society. When the Conservatives won the last election do Labour just stop pushing their view on how to run a country and just agree with everything the government says? The only dummies I have actually seen being spat are Leavers who seem to want to circumnavigate the very thing they voted for i.e. sovereign UK parliamentary voting on UK issues. Like it or not, you cannot change a constitution without abiding by the law of the land. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Nope. As a Remainer, I refuse to be like those idiots in Scottishland who refuse to understand what a referendum result actually means. Brexit means Brexit, hard and fast. We don't get to have our cake and eat it, we leave 100% completely. We don't get to go back and argue the toss a bit more, or keep some bits and not others. We leave 100% completely, and as soon as possible. Dragging it out helps no-one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 I agree get it done, but do it right. The government have no plan, they hadn't even realised what they were attempting to do was actually illegal and are just bumbling about making a public mess of it. If they do nothing t do this right the EU negotiating team will chew them up and spit them out and we all end up in a bad place. Nothing wrong with protesting about that. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Shouldn't be any negotiating really. Come out, then sort out the details. We can't be out, keep access to the market and stop free movement of travel, it's irritating me that the government are even pretending we can. I'm sick of the other parties fussing and mumbling over voting about this nonsense in Parliament. I'm also sick of May not just putting out a three line whip and forcing everything through regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggalo Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 And whats wrong with protesting? Just because 17m people said one thing and 16m said another, it doesn't mean the 16m cannot therefore have a view on what a proper Brexit means - they all still exist, are all still pro-UK despite all the over use of the Union Jack you see on Leave propoganda, and still care about our country. We are leaving we get that, but the manner in which we leave is open to ALL to debate we are not living in some communist society. When the Conservatives won the last election do Labour just stop pushing their view on how to run a country and just agree with everything the government says? The only dummies I have actually seen being spat are Leavers who seem to want to circumnavigate the very thing they voted for i.e. sovereign UK parliamentary voting on UK issues. Like it or not, you cannot change a constitution without abiding by the law of the land. No Coldel, the parliament challenge was/is a cynical attempt to try and block Brexit by having the MP's vote against it, it has nothing to do with democracy. And the Law? the law is trying to block democracy. The people have decided what they want, and the minority are trying every trick they can think of to sabotage the will of the people by using Parliament, the Law, the media, and this bi-election to put the skids on. That's why Theresa May was/is trying to use Royal prerogative. If the Majority say Leave the EU, then the Courts have no say, and the Politicians have no say. If either one can stop the will of the people, then it's the system that's broken, definitely not Democracy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 The point of the vote is that parliament comes to a consensus on exit, it shouldn't be left to a single person to drive the policy decision. Thats kinda how democracy works. If the whole of the Tory party agreed with May then I could possibly see the point of the whip, but they don't and she risks party turmoil if she does when its already quite unstable. And a three line whip has been known to fail in the past, its no guarantee. I got to disagree with you Dan mate, its not fussing, its a genuine concern and why would you not express it? As for hard and fast, yes we need to get out as quickly as possible, but not to the detriment of our position - never saw a great business deal that went well that was rushed through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 And whats wrong with protesting? Just because 17m people said one thing and 16m said another, it doesn't mean the 16m cannot therefore have a view on what a proper Brexit means - they all still exist, are all still pro-UK despite all the over use of the Union Jack you see on Leave propoganda, and still care about our country. We are leaving we get that, but the manner in which we leave is open to ALL to debate we are not living in some communist society. When the Conservatives won the last election do Labour just stop pushing their view on how to run a country and just agree with everything the government says? The only dummies I have actually seen being spat are Leavers who seem to want to circumnavigate the very thing they voted for i.e. sovereign UK parliamentary voting on UK issues. Like it or not, you cannot change a constitution without abiding by the law of the land. No Coldel, the parliament challenge was/is a cynical attempt to try and block Brexit by having the MP's vote against it, it has nothing to do with democracy. And the Law? the law is trying to block democracy. The people have decided what they want, and the minority are trying every trick they can think of to sabotage the will of the people by using Parliament, the Law, the media, and this bi-election to put the skids on. That's why Theresa May was/is trying to use Royal prerogative. If the Majority say Leave the EU, then the Courts have no say, and the Politicians have no say. If either one can stop the will of the people, then it's the system that's broken, definitely not Democracy. Democracy is parliament voting on issues. Democracy are the people voting in people to pass on their word in parliament. I agree we should brexit and trying to block it is ridiculous, however it is flying of the face of democracy to allow the the prime minister to dictate the terms of a constitutional change. That cannot be any more undemocratic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irn Bru Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Nope. As a Remainer, I refuse to be like those idiots in Scottishland who refuse to understand what a referendum result actually means. Brexit means Brexit, hard and fast. We don't get to have our cake and eat it, we leave 100% completely. We don't get to go back and argue the toss a bit more, or keep some bits and not others. We leave 100% completely, and as soon as possible. Dragging it out helps no-one. " I refuse to be like those idiots in Scottishland". With that statement your really set yourself apart eh Ekona.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggalo Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 (edited) And whats wrong with protesting? Just because 17m people said one thing and 16m said another, it doesn't mean the 16m cannot therefore have a view on what a proper Brexit means - they all still exist, are all still pro-UK despite all the over use of the Union Jack you see on Leave propoganda, and still care about our country. We are leaving we get that, but the manner in which we leave is open to ALL to debate we are not living in some communist society. When the Conservatives won the last election do Labour just stop pushing their view on how to run a country and just agree with everything the government says? The only dummies I have actually seen being spat are Leavers who seem to want to circumnavigate the very thing they voted for i.e. sovereign UK parliamentary voting on UK issues. Like it or not, you cannot change a constitution without abiding by the law of the land. No Coldel, the parliament challenge was/is a cynical attempt to try and block Brexit by having the MP's vote against it, it has nothing to do with democracy. And the Law? the law is trying to block democracy. The people have decided what they want, and the minority are trying every trick they can think of to sabotage the will of the people by using Parliament, the Law, the media, and this bi-election to put the skids on. That's why Theresa May was/is trying to use Royal prerogative. If the Majority say Leave the EU, then the Courts have no say, and the Politicians have no say. If either one can stop the will of the people, then it's the system that's broken, definitely not Democracy. Democracy is parliament voting on issues. Democracy are the people voting in people to pass on their word in parliament. I agree we should brexit and trying to block it is ridiculous, however it is flying of the face of democracy to allow the the prime minister to dictate the terms of a constitutional change. That cannot be any more undemocratic. Democracy is Parliament voting on issues, correct. But when they vote against the Will of the People to serve their own personal interests, while pretending they're "Representing the people", then that's a million miles from Democracy, that's a Plutocracy. And there's only one way to deal with a Plutocracy, and it's not by debate, or any other form of civil discourse. Edited December 2, 2016 by Juggalo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldel Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Its not the will of the people, had Leave won by 90% to 10% I might agree with you, but you cannot roll up 16m people into such a phrase when you only had 17m with an opposite view. The Will of the People is a political slogan designed to confuse those that understand the data from the referendum the least. Anyway, to the point in hand, the vote itself was a vote to understand from those that would vote if they wanted to stay or go. At no point were any of use voting on the terms of the exit, it was either in or out, it was never the peoples decision to decide on what the terms of exit looks like. As above, I do not think Parliament should vote against leaving, but the idea of allowing May to dictate constitutional terms is fundamentally wrong in a democracy. This must be a parliamentary debate otherwise you are looking at something like a Putin regime. Boot on the other foot, if May wins the high court challenge, then goes with her terms that mean we still allow freedom of movement, that we have to pay to go into the single market, would you then accept that Parliament have no power to challenge her on that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 That is the will of the people. Straight 50/50 choice, more people wanted out. Couldn't be simpler. May leads the Government, she gets to decide policy. Since when have the rest of parliament ever been given a say in what happened with regards to Europe? And yeah, if she coughs up a damp squib of an exit I'll be really annoyed, even as a Remainer, simply because it's not what was on offer. Leave should mean leave. I don't care if it's not what I voted for, it's the principle of the thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vik54 Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Nope. As a Remainer, I refuse to be like those idiots in Scottishland who refuse to understand what a referendum result actually means. Brexit means Brexit, hard and fast. We don't get to have our cake and eat it, we leave 100% completely. We don't get to go back and argue the toss a bit more, or keep some bits and not others. We leave 100% completely, and as soon as possible. Dragging it out helps no-one. Now Dan that's just antagonistic there's no need sweetie. Each to their own! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ekona Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 It's true though! The Remainers are just getting whingier and more picky every day, and it's embarrassing. Whatever happened to losing with grace, then moving on and making the best of it? True British grit rather than Yankee moaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The G Man Posted December 3, 2016 Author Share Posted December 3, 2016 Don't let Dan kid any of you, he's a fully paid up, dyed in the wool UKipper, if not further right than that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stutopia Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 We demand our laws are enforced in our courts, except obviously when we don't like what those courts do, then we don't want that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juggalo Posted December 3, 2016 Share Posted December 3, 2016 (edited) Reaminers on Radio 4 Any Questions today said I voted to Leave the EU not because I wanted to leave the EU, but because I wanted a better deal from the EU, and that the government was betraying me if we took a hard Brexit. I had no idea. It's nice to be told by a grown up why I do things because I'm such a child and need a Lefty to guide me. They are so wise and all knowing. I hope I become a Liberal Democrat when I get older. Edited December 3, 2016 by Juggalo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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