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dmstewart

Just got Stage 3 from Abbey

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Can you actually feel any difference though? That’s what really matters ultimately. 

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On 21/02/2018 at 06:04, nub said:

Bumping an old thread. I was sceptical but on my remap  Mark proved to be correct about CAI vs stock Intakes.

Genuine question, are you genuinely surprised a well established tuner who has worked extensively on these cars in the UK was right?

 

Whilst you may feel insulating them has helped heat soak, its no different to insulating a house, its also going to keep any heat in and longer for it to cool.

 

I know you dont want to listen, but just go back to stock intakes as suggested you keep in the first place, punt the intakes onto someone who doesnt care and prefers intake noise/looks over iat's etc

 

If you really want to check if your insulation has helped iat's:

 

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.prowl.torque&hl=en_GB

 

and you will need a bluetooth reader.

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I think if you had taken the hands-on approach rather than reading the hype on various products, you may have saved yourself some money.

If you had bought yourself a cheap digital electronic Temperature gauge and installed it at various parts of the intake, you would have been able to prove to yourself just what difference adding all that insulation made.

 

 

I have done this on several different cars so I have experience in what works and what doesn't, so sorry to preach but sometimes you see people spend money on mods that are often a waste of time, but as they say, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.

If you are really hung up on intake temps, why don't you just add a water injection system, this will both cool the intake and charge cool at the same time.

 

 

Edited by Tricky-Ricky
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I had the Stillen Gen 3 with ART pipes, AAM  resonated mid pipe and Meisterschaft Axle back.  It was mapped by TDI North and made 365bhp.  Paul didn’t mention anything about the intakes or heat soak but I didn’t ask either.  He was just very impressed by the sound it made haha!

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Interesting read, thanks guys.

 

Over in the states as mentioned previously a lot of people are running the Stillen Gen 3 intakes, interesting to see that the stock intakes are actually better.

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agree with mark at abbeysport, just add drop-ins /high flow cats/exhaust/ uprev and enjoy!!!!!!

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I'm looking at getting my '45 remapped soon, mainly because it will apparently make the car much more responsive at low to mid revs, reduce turbo lag etc.  Apparently the power hike will take the car to 430bhp, which should be erm... interesting. :)

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If your worried about engine bay temperatures wouldn't it be worth getting the headers ceramic coated to try to eliminate some of the heat in the engine bay? 

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On 23/02/2018 at 09:22, Jetpilot said:

Genuine question, are you genuinely surprised a well established tuner who has worked extensively on these cars in the UK was right?

 

Whilst you may feel insulating them has helped heat soak, its no different to insulating a house, its also going to keep any heat in and longer for it to cool.

 

I know you dont want to listen, but just go back to stock intakes as suggested you keep in the first place, punt the intakes onto someone who doesnt care and prefers intake noise/looks over iat's etc

 

If you really want to check if your insulation has helped iat's:

 

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.prowl.torque&hl=en_GB

 

and you will need a bluetooth reader.

 

Lol it’s not that I don’t want to listen at all, and I am not surprised but obviously the idea is conflicting with Stillen G3 and all the others promoting their product.  It’s not even a big deal when the difference might be max 10bhp. it’s just a bit of a misconception which not everyone is aware about. I think a majority of forum members also have one of the CAIs, the Stillen G3 being most popular. And when you’re on Tarmacsportz website for example, they’re only selling the products and using the manufacturers description with the claimed gains etc. So before I had even spoken to any tuner I’ve already bought a Z1 because, right or wrong the CAIs appear to be the best option unless you really do some research.  You expect colder/dense air to give gains and many happy to spend £500+ on the products with those expectations. They’re just not mentioning like “BTW the aluminium pipes will become hot as **** and the resulting heatsoak might be somewhat counter productive. “

I don’t actually know whether my silicone and gold heat wrap efforts made any difference or improvements at all, without testing IATs. Like you say the insulation works both ways and the lack of airflow might result in the pipes underneath to heat up slower but also cool down the pipes slower. But it made sense in theory that the air enters the filters at a cooler temp then becomes increasingly hotter as it goes through the engine bay. So insulating the pipe with layers of heat reflective tape and silicone should serve as a barrier against the engine bay heat under the bonnet. If the temp of the aluminium itself reduces then that would lower the heatsoak/transfer to the air within. When I tested and compared surface temps, the insulated side was considerably lower temp. The temp decrease was reduced further up towards the TBs because of various contact points. Ultimately at higher speed it might be more effective. Because even at 100mph the airflow isn’t enough to cool down the pipes or stop them getting hot.  But with the insulation it might tip the balance so that increased airflow might become  sufficient enough to reduce the overall engine bay temp. Mostly generated by the engine but it’s not being heated up further by hitting two hot intake pipes. Whether it’s significant enough to make a difference, I’ve no idea. 

Anyway, as suggested and since I need a service..I’m taking my Z1 off and remapping with the stock setup with mishimoto silicone hoses and drop in filter. Maybe I’ll get around 323whp like the chart few pages back, or maybe not. I’ll do it for fun anyway and shouldn’t have difficulty selling the Z1 

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On 27/02/2018 at 20:25, sipar69 said:

I'm looking at getting my '45 remapped soon, mainly because it will apparently make the car much more responsive at low to mid revs, reduce turbo lag etc.  Apparently the power hike will take the car to 430bhp, which should be erm... interesting. :)

Im probably going to remap my BMW and I need to map my MR2 as well, they also have no relevance to this thread ;)

On 04/03/2018 at 04:32, nub said:

 

unless you really do some research.  

Or ask for personal experience on the Owners Club forum and listen to the guy thats mapped more of them anyone else perhaps? :lol:

For the record you also need to take any advice/information/experience from someone trying to sell you something with a large handful of salt - the traders here are as good as anywhere but as with anywhere they have a vested interest in promoting their own products.  

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Yeah I’m not new to modding, I had a supercharged 340bhp CT supercharged FN2 and EP3 before that and I know everything about the K20s etc. Many in the Honda scene also make mistakes buyinh short RAM Intakes etc. The K20s probably don’t run nearly as hot. however the top performing Intakes are actually long CAIs made from plastic or silicone in the case of Hybrid Racing. There is no metal to get heated up and the filter is placed in front of the bumper as you’d expect. Even on my supercharged charged cooled FN2, the CAI being made of silicone would get warm but nothing like the temp of metal. You could place your hand on the MAF intake hose no problem and not get burned. On the 370Z the metal is so hot it would pretty much melt your hand if you tried to do the same. So in my experience on those cars a CAI that’s made of plastic/silicone isn’t heatsoaking so much that it negates the gains, unlike Stillen G3, Z1 etc. 

Also, the majority of the CTR forum community are aware of what works and what doesn’t. Whenever I see modded 370Zs, like the one on page 1, they nearly always have Stillen G3 or one of the CAIs. So i’m not the only one any way 

9431F874-3B48-4C66-95C6-920310472AC9.jpeg

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People know, they just dont care (had a pop charger on my 350) and most prefer the induction noise to a handful of extra hp that is pretty much irrelevant, but we have been down this road many times :yawn:

 

 

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16 hours ago, Jetpilot said:

People know, they just dont care (had a pop charger on my 350) and most prefer the induction noise to a handful of extra hp that is pretty much irrelevant, but we have been down this road many times :yawn:

 

 

I can relate to this, I lost my engine induction note when I supercharged. But thankfully it was replaced with an awesome and very loud charger whine, which leaves people very confused when you overtake etc. Btw I’ve never known how to calculate the torque from the charts.  Do you devide it by something? Using earlier guys chart as a comparison, what’s the torque as it surely isn’t over 1000lbft 

E120661D-5DCB-4188-AF92-6BAB0949D55E.jpeg.e1a2cadd5fdcf77eeb183843fb710e8c.jpeg

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Those are hub torque figures. You would of had 2 sets of dyno plots. The above plot is hub torque and hub bhp. The other plot will be flywheel torque and AFR plots.

 

you can divide the hub torque by the overall final drive ratio on the plot to get a flywheel figure

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Yep you can beat supercharger whine, my harrop charged vx was intoxicating.

 

Not sure i would be posting videos on a public forum showing a speedo in excess of a 100 on the road though :surrender:

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Please be mindful how videos you post up reflect on the club and fellow owners.

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my stillen G3 is also heat wrapped , impressed with your idea of the silcone tubing !

 

I debated for a long time over panel filters and the stillen

 

I'm glad I went for the stillen , butt dyno could feel an improvement 5000- 7500 rpm and the induction noise is increased in this range

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As you know, silicone is the best choice for intake tubing. A half arsed effort wouldn't make any difference but I wrapped the whole thing well enough that it might have worked enough as I described, 3- 4 layers of gold wrap too. But it’s just theory until somebody tests it out the IATs. 

 

Sorry to the mods, I don’t remember which video I posted, I guess it was me accelerating up to speed on a road. Although I do actually have some other videos recorded on the autobahn as I drove through Europe down to Italy last summer in my 370, and in my FN2 the year before that. 

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Oh and I did notice the sound difference installing the Z1, but I don’t notice it anymore. I’ve got ART Pipes with Ark Grip which is louder than the induction, unless you stick a Go Pro on the bumper I can’t hear it or rather distinguish it. Im sure it would be very loud and audible with a stock exhaust system, but everyone knows the stock exhaust setup is too quiet and doesn’t do the car/engine any justice. Adding either a HFC or an aftermarket CBE, as opposed to both would be a good balance in order to hear both induction and some of the caustic/engine character. I swapped my superior Fast Intentions Carbon CBE for the quieter Ark Grip, probably lost a few bhp there but also swapped a FI HFC for the Art Pipes. Any louder than this combo/setup and the cold starts would **** the neighbours right off. If I had stock cats I’d love a Motordyne Shockwave. I’ll sell my Z1 with the wrap if any buyer wants to use it. Those rolls of tape are expensive lol. I actually chose the Z1 intentionally because it has a longer section and proportion of silicone, so I had the right idea anyway. Compared to Stillen G3 which has less silicone and more aluminium. It may be necessary for the structural integrity but If these CAIs were designed with 90% silicone or other special plastic like the skunk2 Intakes then heatsoak wouldn’t be much of an issue. I think the IATs would be much lower, in conjunction with the larger filters and more air/volume they’d work great and not be inhibited by it’s own heatsoak! 

If it’s still snowing when remapped then i’ll fill the engine bay with snow, that will surely help! Or stick the filters in the freezer the night before lol 

 

One more thing, Im trusting and going with the recommendations from Abbey.  obviously they know what they’re doing and they said the HKS Hybrid dry panel filters are the best option. I just guessed that K&N oiled filters were as good as anything else,  until being advised otherwise that dry is better etc. So these  HKS seem fine to me, nice colour but when I search m I’ve heard various conflicting  claims on their longevity. Are they not like K&Ns that you can simply clean and reuse each year? I’ve got a K&N kit. I see many on here also use the HKS Hybrid and have got a modest and minor expected 1-2bhp improvement over OEM disposable. However  I also read some really old topics and posts from HKS themselves sayibg that said they need replacing like every 3000 miles or several times a year lol? I emphasise these were very old topics, maybe on 350Zs or an older design. But for £130 a pair, surely these are washable, reusable each year and they do not require replacing up to 3 times a year? As long as that’s the case I’m down with that, with mishimoto intake hoses. It can’t be that complicated right? I’m even considering gold wrapping the stock boxes and mishimoto hoses. I’ve not had a good look at the induction design and where it draws its air, but I’ve been told it’s efficient. I might Add another 10 layers and 2” thick gold heat reflective wrap around the system, for bling peace of mind lol. 

Whilst I’m at it, does anybody create custom cold air feeds to Intakes or breaks etc. I don’t need the brakes but whilst I’ve got the bumper off i’ll consider anything else just for fun. Let me know if anything looks wrong btw, my mechanic said it was beneficial to fit the oil cooler and transmission, power steering or whatever cooler it is on different and opposing sides, contrary to instructions for better air flow.  Which makes sense. It’s a decent Stillen thermostatic oil cooler, 21 row I think and I don’t track the car but I was told out the factory, 370z runs too hot for any fast hard driving. I think they later added a cooler as standard? 

7DB7F6C6-602F-44B5-B6C7-FC6BD7397B21.jpeg

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I would go with silicone hoses and drop in k/n air filters, but I noticed on the z1 intakes they prefer the JIM WOLF CONE POP CHARGER STYLE FILTER.Now it may be worthwhile looking at the Jim Wolf kit and if you feel you are not getting enough cool air, maybe add air inducts on the front bumper, but have them lined up correctly.

I have the above but are awaiting a deal on hfc,s before I tune the car, then on my tuners advice might try the idea above as there is no steel tubing at all, just silicone.:teeth:

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If anyone is interested, I returned to stock setup with silicone hoses and hybrid panel filters. I did not really lose any power, it made about the same peak but it did make some small gains in power throughout the Rev range, as much as you can expect from changing an intake. However I seemed to gain 10-15lbft torque in some areas from 3000k onwards. That is enough to be noticeable, and the curve seems to vary compared to others, probably because I’ve got a ART Decat pipes, as opposed to HFCs.  it pulls a bit harder from 3k onwards for sure, and also slightly earlier whereas before it was just not as responsive on the throttle until you got beyond 4000rpm. What provides the gains in torque I don’t know for sure but I can only assume heatsoak was a factor and as Mark has said, the stock setup seems to yield better results overall. 

I can’t explain why the dude in the OP still got around 10whp peak over mine, comparing my decat vs HFC, I’m not even sure which cat back is less restrictive Ark Grip or the other quite different designs like Stillen, cobra etc. But I know with some mods you can sacrifice top end for midrange also, and vice versa. A 3” cat back would gain another 5-10bhp in addition over a 2.5”, if you can deal with the noise.  But otherwise it’s probably just normal variation between different engines. I know on the Honda K20s, higher mileage beyond 50k are known to make more power than lower mileage engines. But that’s just another theory.  It was never going to offer any dramatic gains but mainly to satisfy my curiosity and with regard to the claims made by Stillen etc. Now I have been able to compare a CAI to the stock setup, I would not waste my money buying one again. The graph is pretty clear but the difference is still negligible if you just consider peak numbers. I’m sure other cars with Stillen G3 and similar CAIs can gain a few extra bhp top end bouncing on the limiter , but on my graph and in my case you can see that it’s simply not worth it - and slightly misleading too. The heat coming from the aluminium intake pipes was just pissing me off anyway lol. So i’ll be selling my Z1 CAI. 

I can highly recommend Scott/Mark, the guys at Abbey. I had a service and other bits that needing fixing at the same time. Very professional corrrespondance throughout, hassle-free and money well spent. i’ll be back again for whiteline bushes and anything else I can think of. Ive not looked into it at all but I think the best performance mod at this point would be shorter a FD when my clutch goes. 

8513EF39-DDD3-4007-B48B-7FD50ED7E9C7.jpeg

Edited by nub
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thanks for posting 

 

When I fitted my Stillen CAI there was definate top end increase in power on the butt dyno , you had to rev past 5500rpm to feel it

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