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rtbiscuit

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Posts posted by rtbiscuit

  1. with regards to the xenaphobia and racisim, its always been there, I deal as a teacher and have done over the last 13 years issues with anti sematism, anti black and anti asian issues. it is infrequent and i have seen it over 4 schools and all are graded outstanding. there has always been unpleasant undertones in our society, but they are the minority and will go back under their rocks once this has settled.

    • Like 1
  2. On the understanding of oil and its economic taxation as discussed above i can be honest and say " I know Nothing"

     

    so over these aspects i can't comment,

     

    But both G and Chesterfield seem to understand it and it is making for interesting reading

     

    Everyday is a school day :thumbs:

     

    with regards to the xenaphobia and racisim, its always been there, I deal as a teacher and have done over the last 13 years issues with anti sematism, anti black and anti asian issues. it is infrequent and i have seen it over 4 schools and all are graded outstanding. there has always been unpleasant undertones in our society, but they are the minority and will go back under their rocks once this has settled.

    • Like 1
  3. I'm not a young voter nor am I old. But the young voice not being heard has to be partly put at the feet of the young. With only about 30% turnout those that feel deflated should be looking at the 70% who didn't bother. My students have been discussing this and any that voted out. Have been lambasted by their peers. And surprisingly higher amount at least in my area voted leave.

     

    With regards to the racism stance I find it ironic that the remain voters can keep a straight face when they wanted to stay in a system that promoted free movement, but was building fences and closing borders, gassing migrants and refugees at borders. Not only that they have been making deals with turkey to ship them all back to turkey and pay turkey to keep them there. Yes that sounds like the model system to me.

     

    It must be a long way up on some peoples moral high horses. Maybe they can't see all the facts as clearly.

     

    And if you thought we would have any sway in that, they have no interest in letting people in. They're just hoping they'll all get bored and go home from turkey.

    • Like 2
  4. I've seen this several times before and everytime i see it i find it incredibly narrow visioned and full of errors, i couldn't help my self and have added comments in blue :blush:

     

    A different view on "lost, just get on with it, stop moaning":

     

    "There is something I need to say. it will be a long post. Some of my friends might be offended, that is not my intention. But I need to say this. Please read it, even if you don't read my other EU posts.

     

    Since the referendum result, it has been a much repeated statement that those of us still talking about the referendum should just shut up. Some people are polite and blindly optimistic, saying 'let's focus on what unites us, let's work together'. Other people are offensive, calling Remain voters bad losers, or worse. I need to tell you why I cannot - will not - be silenced on this. Why working together seems so difficult today.

     

    A common thread seems to be 'we're all allowed an opinion, let us have our opinion and stop arguing about it, accept that some people don't agree with you and those people won.' Yes, you are allowed an opinion. You can form an opinion about whatever in the world you want to and I fully respect your right to that. You can have an opinion that the sky is purple with yellow spots if you want. However, if I asked you to bet your livelihood and future, and that of all the people around you, on whether your opinion of the sky is right, I would at least expect you to look up to check your facts are right.

     

    If you're going to argue with someone it helps to understand the facts before telling someone they're wrong Technically the sky isn't blue it has no colour and is only a perception of colour refraction and changes depending on the light in the sky sky is blue because molecules in the air scatter blue light from the sun more than they scatter red light. When we look towards the sun at sunset, we see red and orange colours because the blue light has been scattered out and away from the line of sight.

     

     

    When you found the sky was, in fact, blue, I would expect you to respond accordingly. Sometimes there is a right answer and a wrong answer. Sometimes we cannot agree to disagree, however nice the sentiment is. Too many people have voiced the sentiment - 'I have a right to an opinion even though I don't really understand the EU or politics, so just leave me alone and stop challenging me.' You had a right to that opinion. But before you cast a vote, you had the responsibility to back that opinion up with fact. To at least start to understand what you were voting on. There was an awful lot of information out there during the debate. If you voted without really understanding the facts then I have every right to challenge you and I won't stop just because it makes you uncomfortable. This is far, far too important. All those people Googling what the EU means on the 24th June, or telling us all how they didn't really understand, just had a 'feeling' which way to vote should all be ashamed.

     

    I would like to know how you can attribute all the googling to just leave voters? could it be possible a lot of remain voters who didn't know what they were voting on might have been googling it to find out what they're about to leave. Shouldn't more remain voters have done their research before voting to stay? just because you think your position is right doesn't mean others in your own group didn't do their research either

     

    I will also address the idea that we don't like having 'lost'. I could not care less, this isn't a tennis match and I never saw it as 'winning or losing'. I saw it as fighting for the future, for hope, for diversity and tolerance. I saw it as making a decision that wasn't inward-looking and selfish, as being part of the modern world.

     

    And people on the leave camp didn't have the same train of thought?

     

    75% of the younger people of this country also had this vision for the future. I don't feel that I have lost a game. I feel that our whole country has been betrayed, destroyed (in the sense that the UK will disintegrate) and lost any respect in the eyes of the world. We have all lost the benefits of EU citizenship, even those of us who wanted to keep it. We have voted to be left on our little rock, all alone.

     

    At no point is this a vote of isolation, people still want to trade and work with Europe and it would no different to travelling or visiting any other country, you have a passport you get a stamp. they haven't blocked up the tunnel and cancelled all leaving flights. its an opportunity to grow our economy with emerging big economies and an ability to react quicker as an independent than as a large conglomerate.

     

    All the values of 'Britishness' I identified with have been undermined. I do not feel any common ground with the vocal parts of the Leave campaign. Not because they 'won' and we 'lost' but because I simply do not have that mindset and I find most of what they have said to be offensive. The whole world has 'lost' after this referendum.

     

    And nothing on the remain vote was at all offensive or belittling?

     

    I do not want to tar all Leave voters with the same brush. I respect that there were individual people who made decisions based on thoughtful points of view. In my next words, I'm not saying all Leave voters are the same. Nor are all Remain voters automatically good people. However. I campaigned on the streets, I read article after article, I engaged in endless social media conversations.

     

    But you'll tar everyone with it any way; people on the leave side did just the same thing, but she thinks everyone on the leave camp are council housed arse scratching dribbly simpletons, and everyone in the remain camp was highly intellectual and born with an IQ no lower than 160 and were all endorsed by catholic saints.

     

    I know the tone of this debate. And the Leave side employed anti-immigrant and racist rhetoric.

     

    And the remain camp dabbled heavily in fear and threats

     

     

    Many Leave voters voted because they wanted to restrict freedom of movement. I know because they told me, often aggressively. And, today, I've heard from migrant and British ethnic minority friends that they feel threatened and unwelcome in this country. They are worried to leave the house. They have seen that half of the country are willing to ally themselves with a racist and anti-immigrant campaign, even if they do not feel that way themselves. That is not a situation in which we can just keep quiet and find a way to work together. I don't think all leave voters are racists but I fear that the racists now feel legitimacy, that they think half the country agrees with them. I have already heard this expressed on social media.

     

    Because social media is the most accurate reflection of current society? yes there are some disgusting people who happen to vote the same way, doesn't mean i or others agree with them and they make up a minority of the vote. many just worry about immigration but don't go out and beat up foreigners.

     

    'The majority have spoken, that's democracy', I've been told. But is it? Have they? The Scots don't think so, for a start. Do we have a country in which an angry majority can trample over the rights and wishes of a minority? That's a little scary. This referendum campaign was full of lies (yes, on both sides, but more of them on the Leave side, as the media is finally acknowledging) and many, many people voted with no knowledge of what they were voting on.

     

    You've only just noticed this about politics; I could sit here for an hour or more listing all the empty promises that different elected governments have failed to follow through on. there are a vast majority who vote in general elections not because they understand the politics, but good old dad voted that way and this towns always been labour/tory. we've been voting in governments for years where less than 50% of the public vote and of that 50% only 30% make up the winning vote. when you include all those who didn't vote you have a government voted in by only 36% of the electorate. well that seems like perfect representation to me ...Not

     

     

    For so many, if it wasn't about immigration, it was a protest vote against the Conservatives or against politics and politicians in general. The majority haven't actually spoken about the EU, they've expressed anger on all kinds of issues.

     

    And this is backed up by what evidence/figures or is it just speculation and hearsay?

     

    None of this seems like a good basis for a decision that will throw us into recession and isolation,

     

    Recent data had shown we were already facing a possible recession even if we had stayed in the EU

     

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/britains-economy-is-slipping-towards-a-recession-2016-5

     

     

    that will strip our young people of the right to live, work and study abroad, will affect every aspect of our lives. It was an irresponsible referendum because it had no regulations relating to what level of turnout or majority would give it legitimacy.

     

    But it isn't legally binding the referendum was and is nothing more than an opinion poll how politicians choose to interpret that is another thing, and as of yet no one has actually initiated article 50 so we are still in the EU and will be for sometime.

     

    I have resisted signing the petition for a new referendum so far because I want to be seen to be respecting the democratic decision. But I am beginning to see it as far from democratic or representative. And with so many of the Leave voters now saying they would change their vote if they could, what would the result of a referendum today actually be?

     

    You've seen more than 1.9 million people who want to change their vote, have you checked to see if any on the remain side might have done the same, but thought it doesnt' matter as they got the vote they wanted anyway?

     

    Maybe we should find out before we think about triggering Article 50 and actually leaving the EU. Can we really let this decision stand after such a shabby campaign and with a small majority result? This is why I am proud of the Lib Dem stance to challenge the referendum and fight to stay in the EU at the next General Election.

     

    a small majority? 1.3 million is larger than 126 different countries populations it would be like the whole of Estonia voting to leave

     

    There is an awful lot more I could say. But I will end with this. I am shocked, frightened and horrified by this. By the divisions in the country and by the outcome of the referendum. I feel alienated from a country I have always been proud of, in a liberal non-nationalistic sense. I have friends who feel even worse because they're migrants or minorities. Virtually the entire population of the world thinks we've lost our minds. We've become an inspiration for the French far right, for the Texas Tea Party movement and congratulated by Donald Trump. American and European friends are writing to me to express sympathy and disbelief that we could do this. I need to talk about this personally because I am mourning and talking helps. Don't you dare tell me to shut up if your vote is part of the reason I feel this way today. Block me if you don't care, but don't silence me.

     

    If you are not talking about this, you do not understand how important this is. You have underestimated the impact. Not just on the economy or trade or freedom of movement. But on society, ideology, the heart and soul of this nation. On the whole world. If you are not still talking about this, you are irresponsible, in my eyes. This conversation is one of the most important in the nation's history. It will define who we are for generations to come.

     

    But hey, you have your opinion don't you? And it sound lovely to say we should all just get along. Sounds like you're rising above it all. This will affect you too. And then you might be glad that some of us are talking about what it means.

     

    I am the 48% #WeAreThe48"

     

    Rebecca S Buck

    • Like 1
  5. to argue the amount of voters wasn't large enough or the % difference isn't big enough is odd, we've been seeing voter turnout at general elections as low as 40% for years, of which the winning party is made of just half that at best. means we have for years happily been voting in a controlling body that only 20% of the population actually voted for. and now we have a turnout of 75% of which half then voted to leave would suggest a far more accurate vote more representative of the populous than in the past.

     

    If we're going to discuss voting turnout as a key point then it needs to be changed in government and from that point on all votes and elections should be a compulsory turnout, but the option for "none of the above" should be on the voting slip.

  6. the french have been trying for decades to get the EU language to be primarily french

     

    a 2nd referendum wouldn't surprise me, i think for a lot of people even in the remain camp wanted a leave vote in order to see if they could get better terms. i think when they get close to what they want, they'll either have a 2nd vote or just overturn it in the commons and put us in.

     

    if sturgeon had stayed onboard for now at least to see what they could push for they'd be in a better position, but shes just undermining things at the moment. its about putting the pressure back on the EU. As Chesterfield said its about who blinks first.

     

    at the last negotiations we had no leverage nothing to play with, Cameron knew it at the time its why we got bog all. now if we let them sweat for a bit and then go back to the table, and the leverage we now have is the possibility to destabilise the EU or even unravel it, they are going to sit up and take far more notice. and if we don't we go anyway. its one hell of a gamble, but could see something happen that keeps all parties moderately happy.

  7. but I wonder what will be part of the deal for Scotland to join the EU, I have a feeling they will have to adopt the Euro, they'll be modelled on the irish, if that's a positive or a negative I don't know and at this point with the risk attatched to the Sterling would swapping to a Eruo for Scotland be a good thing?

  8. I voted on economic reasons, i envisioned a future over a much longer term that saw us safer out than in. i am also not stupid enough to think that it was going to be walk in the park getting there. I am fully aware that it will be peoples jobs and homes on the line in what will be a tough time getting there. my mortgage is at as much risk as everybody else. it wasn't a decision i took lightly and now think "woopi lets fudge the country up" i also think it will take us about 10 years to get to where we need to be, but possibly start to see the turn after 5 years.

     

    I'm also early 30's i'm in it for the long haul,

     

    initiating brexit now i think is a bad move,

     

    Europe needs to start feeling the burn before they'll negotiate with any kind of fairness. there needs to be other countries applying the same pressure.

     

    I think plans won't get off the ground until next year. i think we still have to get out the way, tory leadership battle, labour leadership battle, reshuffle of parties and then a general election before christmas.

     

    After that i think we'll be in a posistion to start properly; around spring time, at which point other countries may well be doing their own referendum

  9. I honestly think (I know i'm shortening this to a base level to make it easier to explain and I don't believe it is that simple) this has got to be played out like a game of poker, from the start before the out vote was confirmed and the last 12 months of run up has been one large version of call my bluff. with the EU basically calling us out to see if we mean it. with no real intenetion of making any change.

     

    whats shocked them is we just pulled out a hell mary pass. and it needs to be played out. its all a waste if we just fold and do what they want. the whole fact that there is a mass of uncertainty is part of its advantage. the fact we voted this way has already started the ball rolling of them having to inact change. something we could never have done if we'd stayed at the table.

     

    what they also have to deal with is that there are going to be more cards on the table soon, no gaurentees but several others could be pushing for a referendum, if the EU think there is enough risk that they'll come unstuck it could change the negotiation table.

     

    I still don't think we'll leave, I think they'll be some shinanigans in parliament and they'll hold a vote, they'll all vote to stay and we'll end up staying. but hopefully by that point it gives the EU the nudge to change it needed.

     

    if of course we do leave it might give us the leverage to get the deals we want/need.

     

    if we just left no arguments then the proposed Norway model etc is exactly what we'll get. if we roll over straight away it gives the EU time to regroup in order to deal with the next few issues.

     

    if we were to leave slowly take our time; yes it will have an economical hurt in the short term but it could mean that in the spring the EU is fire fighting on multiple fronts a quick and easy deal would be far more appealing.

     

    I don't know if this is the plan, but it makes no sense to come out and directly say just that, its like playing a "boris" play dumb but actually be pretty switched on with your end goal.

     

    its a major gamble which could have horrific fallout if it goes the wrong way, but if played out and timed well could see things not as bad as people think. I should add at no point do I think it will be easy or without sacrifice. I've been through financial hardship I wouldn't want to again and my job in the public sector is probably high risk if it all goes belly up. but I weighed it up and decided it was worth the risk, I didn't take the decision lightly and my childrens future is riding on this as much as everyone elses.

    • Like 2
  10. Daniel Hannan is very good at putting his point across, I thought a lot of what he said made sense pre the referendum; I also like Hilary Benn,

     

    I honestly think the negotiation party if there ever is one (still not convinced anyone will actually pull the trigger (I think it will get voted out in parliament once the dust has settled)) should be cross party mix of labour, conservative lib dem, greens scots etc

    • Like 1
  11. Australia used to be a keen trade partner till we snubbed them for Europe. they would be up for a new free tade agreement, but it would need to be renegotitiated, apparently they won't just allows us to take the old one out the draw and dust it off.

    • Like 1
  12. Some interesting points raised over the last 24 hrs.

     

    firstly; my understanding of expat/immigrant stance

     

    immigration is what you refer to as your incoming; expat is what you refer to as your outgoing.

     

    so (sorry Adrian as I use you as the example) in reference to talking about Adrian in the UK from a UK perspective he would technically be classed as a migrant/immigrant. if people in Romania were talking about the success of their kin abroad they would refer to him as a Romanian Expat.

     

    personally I don't refer to individuals as immigrants etc as I see them as people; Adrian is Adrian regardless of the country of origin; he's still a pain in the arse even if he was born here or not :lol: ;-)

     

     

     

    I find the petition for a 2nd referendum in the uk somewhat insulting, as it means 48% of people only believe in democracy as long as you vote the same way as them. a votes a vote regardless of if you like the outcome. the turnout is higher than its been in a long time, if the turnout is so critical voting should be made compulsory like it is in Australia. secondly we've been voting in leading political parties with national voting margins as low as 18% and no one has once tried to re take the election because they don't like the outcome.

     

    one of the major things the vote has thrown up is the public rejection of the current political climate; i'm no fan of the green party but caroline lucas makes an interesting point (I know she is trying to raise her own party profile)

     

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/24/brexiters-voters-eu-referendum-result-proportional-voting

     

    this could the only chance we have to modernise and change the political landscape. by voting in PR. this could encourage more to vote if they know that they will be represented. and the higher chance of coalitions could leave to more balanced politics as they have to work together more.

     

    with regards to dealing with Europe, the UK only has to hold out till the French elections next spring and then we will be the least of their problems, a long with several other country elections. also not that I agree if the UK holds out and the impact starts to effect the Eurozone the EU could be more likely to be more generous in order to end the issue.

     

    with regards to Scotland leaving last time they wanted to leave the UK but keep the £ they didn't want the Euro, how likely would we be to give them that? if they leave under these circumstances would they not be forced into the Euro? if they go down this route and the Eurozone is starting to unravel; how likely are the scots going to want to leave?

    • Like 3
  13. has everybody forgotten that this vote was in general just an opinion pole, its not legally binding, someone down the line could turn round and say, we had a think and decided its to dangerous so we're going to stay. we also haven't initiated article 50 and until we do we're still in Europe. we have 3 months of stability as everyone know nothing will happen until their is new leadership. it could be delay further with an emergency general election by Christmas, especially with the possibility of change at the top of the opposition.

     

    it may well not happen as we plan, Europe could self implode before we leave with others pulling out. it could see the EU collapse and the countries coming back together in a similar version to the EEC.

     

    so many variables so many paths it can't really be predicted. it needs people to get on with it and also let it play out. carefully moving forward without making any knee jerk reactions.

     

    Le penn could use this to force a French referendum if there is enough support the current French establishment could end up losing to le penn if she offers a referendum if she's voted in. we could see a domino effect in other EU countries, we could see the treat of no decent deals with the UK completely undermined.

     

    if the EU collapses why would Scotland leave the UK to join an imploding sun.

     

    is Scotland in a financial position to go it alone I;'m not sure the SNP wanted it this early, I don't think they're ready for it yet.

    • Like 3
  14. I'd ask to meet in the middle, because they didn't let you know before proceeding, if it was going to be 1 hour and £60 and they took 4 and want £200 i would possibly agree to settle at £100-£120. shows you understand complications can happen, but they are also responsible for not checking before going ahead.

    • Like 2
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